For convenience and continuity of discussion we are offering a single portal for comments on Decade of Doubt instead of standard commenting on each of the many stories.
We expect discussion of a sensitive nature with this series, but this string is subject to the same reader participation agreement as the rest of this Web site.
By its nature, this series invites discussion of race and violent acts. Experience tells us that this will be difficult for readers to discuss without making racist statements. The associated court documents and audio files online are explicit and contain profanity. But none of this means community discussion should be explicit, profane or racially charged. There are many news stories here that explore the case tastefully. Use their tone as your guide.
We all want a full, open and productive exchange on this series, and that means participating in a forum that is welcoming to all points of view without insult or attack.
Kelly Bostian Managing editor Fairbanks Daily News-Miner
I still remember watching the news report about this attack. It was so upseting and truly a turning point for our town. This boy was so young and looked like the "All American Boy" in his photos. He reminded me of my brother and I cried for him & his mother while I watched. We found out later that this boy was getting into trouble, just like the boys that are accused of this. I have read everything I was able to find on this story because I have always felt like they had some of the wrong people. I have thought that they may have had 1 or 2 of the people involved, but those boys were too cowardly to come forward and clear their friends. I have always thought that Chris Stone was involved. It just makes sense considering John was found in Chris' pants. It is amazing though, that after all these years no one has come forward with any "real" evidence. I never though Roberts car could have been involved - where is the forensic evidence?? It will be interesting to see how the rest of this turns out. I sure hope they have all of the people involved with this, because I know that with everything I have read (and I am white) I could NOT have convicted some of these boys!!
After reading these articles, I can only say that my initial suspicion has been confirmed: these are not impartial pieces of academic reporting, but sensational pieces carefully crafted to bring about a sense of, if you will, 'shock and awe'. There are major differences in approach to a subject, especially in the field of journalism, and these remind me, unfortunately, of the kinds of reporting one might expect to see on CourtTV, or in a glossy magazine. These are not unbiased, informational newspaper articles.
Once again I think this case needs to go to trial one more time. From what I understand Marvin Roberts was at a wedding and had witnesses to prove it. In the paper the police admitted they used lying tactics about false evidence to obtain "CONFESSIONS". The use of those tactics have been proven to imprison innocent people for crimes they did not commit. I believe that boy is in jail for something he didn't do. Our hearts go out to the Hartman family and all families involved.
Based on everything that has been posted here with regards to this story, I believe that 4 murderers are rightfully behind bars for the better part of their lives and the streets of Fairbanks are a little bit safer.
The rants of racism against natives only reinforces that belief. The race card is the last resort of the guilty.
I SERIOUSLY HAVE MY DOULBTS ABOUT MOST OF THE GUYS THAT WERE CHARGED...FROM WHAT I SAW ON THIS ARTICLE IT MAKES ME HAVE EVEN MORE DOULBTS... HOPEFULLY ONE OF THESE DAYS THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED..MY HEART GOES OUT TO EVERYONE INVOLVED..ESPECIALLY TO THE FAMILIES OF THE GUYS THAT I BELIEVE WERE WRONGLY CHARGED...
This entire situation is the unfortunate result of too many people simultaneously screaming about discrimination and insisting the legal system does more faster to make our city safe, whilst community leaders throw their political clout behind one "side" or the other, and journalists presented the story incompletely to create heated public opinion.
Let's face it people, our legal system leaves a lot to be desired in this day and age. A person or persons killed a young man. The investigation and prosecution of this murder causes many to wonder about the quality, fairness and righteousness of our police and courts.
Maybe those who truly want the truth, who genuinely want justice, could stick to the facts, instead of trying to convince us all that that those involved in this crime were all helpless, innocent, victimized young men. That not enough people care about the incarcerated because they were Native born. That the only reason they are in prison in the first place is because they the white establishment just wants to point fingers at Natives.
That attitude really annoys me. I am not Native, but my family has been in Alaska for four generations, and I have lived in the Interior my entire life, since before Alaskan Natives were referred to as Natives. Yes, there is prejudice here, but I have seen far more blatant prejudice practiced by Natives toward non-Natives in the past couple of decades, and it seems to me that this prejudice rears it's head every time something bad happens in this great city.
I believe, from the facts I know, that the "system" failed where this crime is concerned. Perhaps we could stick to the fact that it failed, instead of deciding prejudice is the reason why. Because it fails a lot of people, both Native AND non-Native.
they are innocent, knew it from the beginning. They got railroaded by deceitful fairbanks police force who extacted a false confession. Roberts is a smart kid, he didn't take the plea deal because he's innocent, if he took the deal he would be out now, but he could never live with himself for railroading his fellow innocents.
The real crime is we have innocent people in jail. Leonard Peltier of Alaska!
Let's not forget that the system has failed John Hartman and his family also. The person(s) that actually did commit this crime has not been charged, convicted, and sentenced for this crime. I agree with magsak in that we should keep our 'eye on the ball' when it comes to the facts of the case.
As for the racial comments, I am Alaska Native, I can confidently say that I grew up during a time when being native was not cool. That is why I hold my head high, confident of my heritage and I am passing that down to my children. This is the time that Alaska Natives/American Indians can be proud to be who they are. If you are misconstruing that confidence, that pride, then that is your issue.
Also, the fact of the matter is, the FPD blatantly stated that 'Natives stick together'. This, for me, pulled the racial card. I finally got around to reading those police interviews. FPD, those police officers specifically, did a horrible job. They need to be held accountable for their actions/lack of investigating. They blindly investigated, interrogated who they wanted to. Tunnel vision. I hope that this forum opens minds and I applaud Brian for his efforts. Brian, you and your journalism students have done more for those 4 young men than FPD. Keep up your efforts.
Evalyn Thomas, I will pray for you and your family. I will pray that you get the closure you deserve. I pray for the closure that will start the racial healing process the community needs. Until then, we need to keep an open mind.
It would be a lot easier to sympathize with these 4 guys if they were even a little bit good citizens. The consistent background of drug use and violent behavior throughout this whole story make that very difficult though. I have never read a story, even a long one, as thoroughly full of bad characters. To me, all 4 seemed bound for jail sooner or later, and the judge had it right on when he said of one of them that it was a question of when, not if, he would end up murdering. Several others in the story are just as bound for jail, or already there.
This is an old story with nothing new to it. When or if there is "new evidence" concerning this crime that is when we should be reading about it, until then don't try to convince people with good story telling that these boys were railroaded.
I have read the interviews and the court transcript. The police used acceptable tactics when they were doing the investigation. We might not agree with those tactics but they were acceptable tactics used by almost all law enforcement officers in the United States both white and non-white officers, from the smallest local police department to the FBI.
I do feel sorry for these boys and their families, along with the victim and his family. If these boys did not do it then the real person or persons should come forward and prove that these boys are innocent. I pray that if these boys are innocent then the guilty parties will come forward and justice will be served.
True our justice system isn't perfect, but at least these boys were able to go to court and get a "fair hearing" unlike some countries where you are guilty until proven innocent. They are also given the right to appeal their convictions unlike in other countries.
We should also be glad that they are serving time in jail instead of being executed for something that they might not have done.
If this was a case of improper prosecution then we need to know and heads need to role. I think some facts fit but other facts just seem odd. If the killer of John Hartman has been free for last ten years it would be unforgivable.
Prejudice can be both subtle and insidious. Even though Arlo Olsen testified that he did not know Marvin Roberts, was not acquainted with him, a jury believed that he could identify Marvin, a stranger, in the dark, at 550 feet away. "These Native kids all know each other" said one non-native courtroom observer explaining Arlo Olsen's extraordinary night vision.
The Fairbanks police department linked these four young men together on the basis of a photo of a basketball team in high school year book. Arlo Olsen with his apparent superpower night vision was the only person who said (much later) that he saw these boys together. Many reputable witnesses testified that the young men were not together the night John Hartman died. But the all-white jury allowed the state's attorney to discredit the sworn testimony of these witnesses when he closed with his infamous "Spartacus" statement implying that all Natives stick together and will lie for each other.
The headlines and photos in the News Miner implied that the murder was a race related "spree" attack since there was no motive for these four boys to have killed John Hartman and in the weeks following, most of the people of Fairbanks believed what they read in the newspaper despite the fact that newspaper was simply printing exaggerated statements from the police and district attorney.
Prejudice, whether racial or social class in origin, has resulted in these four young men spending their lives in prison for a crime that they did not commit.
To all the wanna be detectives out there. Is it possible to stomp a person to death and have no physical evidence on you are in your car? Not only no physical evidence on you but the other people convicted in this crime. What are the chances of that? One would intend to think that with all the blood on the victim there would be at least one speck of the victims blood on the accused are at least in the accused car.
The confession that occured for the third time after sleep, family counsel and food said it all. All four kids pin pointed and named for location in car and what they did. The mishandling was a joke and there may be more as to wether the kids picked out Chris and John got hurt by just being with him but they got the right kids. From how the body was found it sounds like they 'curbed' him. Chris may have been the mark but John was killed. This is a story of bad DA's and judges not racism and not having the innocent impisoned.
I'll bet the racial tension you are stirring up with this makes you proud! Hope the bottom line is lookin good over this sensationalism.
None of you really knows what happened that night - for you were not there!
Enough with the 'crime they did not commit' statements! If they didn't commit the crime, find those that did. Until then, the criminal justice system has deemed these youths guilty and they are where they deserve to be - nothing more, nothing less.
I would think the same no matter what their race, color or creed. I do think, however, that if another ethnicity would have been convicted, this story would not have been dragged off the shelf as it has here!
This story should have stayed on the shelf unless there was actually new evidence to bring forward! I am ashamed of you DNM! I hope you will take your share of the blame if something untoward happens because of this 'journalism'
Irresponsible as usual - and to think i was considering renewing my subscription after some years without....wont happen until some adult supervision is found to run the DNM.
Exactly Olddog. It's difficult to believe that the prosecution got a conviction with zero DNA and zero forensic evidence. The evidence is purely circumstantial. The suspects were drunk. The witnesses were drunk. Who can remember any facts accurately, when you're drunk? The interrogation, and not to ridicule our Fairbanks Police, should never have occurred, while the suspects were still under the influence of alcohol.
It seems the confession was forced with intimidation and lies. Granted one or two of these 4 young men had some criminal history, but so do many other Alaskans.
My first question regarding Stone, even prior to reading about his involvement with John Hartman the night of the assault was "where was Chris Stone, while his friend was being pulverized?" Why doesn't Chris Stone remember "who" beat him up? There's too much inconsistency in Stone's story. I wouldn't rule out the Cocaine dealer's potential involvement either.
Had Vent or Frese beaten John Hartman, there would have been some DNA on their clothes. Olsen is/was a drunk and how could he possibly have seen anything accurately?
I would be apt to investigate Dupe more intensely. As Stone said, Dupe partook to beat Stone up.
I suspect there is hush regarding the guys who beat up Stone.
The sexual assault isn't even confirmed. There was no blood on the pants to indicate a sexual assault.
Oct 11, 1997 was a wild night apparently in downtown Fairbanks. You can't blame the Fairbanks police for negligence, when they are overwelmed with inebriates, DV calls and understaffed.
You can't believe jail snitches.
It's a botched investigation. Other leads were not investigated.
I'm not convinced the suspects received a fair trial or that they are guilty. I vote YES for a new trial.
Unfortunately, I also have to agree with AKguy as far as the DNM running this story. It's in poor taste and will aggravate old wounds. I'm not entirely convinced the 4 guys in jail are guilty of murdering John Hartman. They certainly were on a bad path Oct 11, 1997.
Whoever did this to John frankly deserves the same done to them. My kids won't be out on the town after dark!
Additionally Dick Madson, and Judge Downes were/are two very established a good attorneys.
No AKguy. This isn't racism. The sole remark that "natives all stick together" is what fueled the racism card. Frankly they do, and I don't say that negatively. I know lots of natives, who are friends of mine.
you make an excellent point in a statement above 'my kids wont be out on the town after dark'
That's the kicker really, isn't it...all these young men running the streets, most underage and drunk. In some cases relatives actually saw their kin stumble by and did nothing.
ultimately it leads back to the parenting, no? When I was 15 or 17 there was no way my parents would have allowed me to be partying it up in some dive motels....
Maybe the society as a whole can learn from this...
whether innocent or guilty, alive or dead - many wasted lives and many more effected by poor judgment and a loose family structure I think
I hope this series doesn't weigh too greatly on the family of Hartman...God Bless
A few months ago a letter to the editor ran. It was from one of the young men in prison for this crime, I followed this case back when and his letter was so filled with hate and distain and disregard for the victim and his family, and so filled with selfish statements to help get out of jail. I had no doubt that even with the inconsistencies in the prosecution we have one of the murders behind bars. Please Pray for all the families involved it is a hard time for all.
justice for these murderers would have been the death penalty.I believe that they did it and I hope one day they will tell the truth.I think its rediculous that these guys beat John....hitting his face over and over and over until rendered unconcious....did they stop then?...NO.....that wasnt enough....so they sexually assulted him too.I wish these guys would get what they deserve....a long,drawn out beating until unconciousness sinks in and they need a machine to keep them alive....this is only my opinion.
I fail to see how rehashing this violent crime is going to help the community deal with the issues it presents, it seems to fuel the racism. I went to school with John Hartman and I am part Native, it was a terrible thing that happened, all I can think of is how his family feels about this series. Native or non-Native, people are people, and when this happened we lost a promising young man, it is irrelevant to me what race the people are that committed the crime.
The case is muddled. Ask investigator Aaron Rings classmates at his high school in Fairbanks if he had a racist attitude against Alaska Natives. Ask the same for O'Bryant, who in the courtroom is the one that stated "Don't believe village people. They'll back each other.. No matter what"! Yep the tens of people who vouched for Marvin Roberts were not to be believed. Anyone who kicked up someone in the snow will have blood, tissue and hair stuck to their shoes, clothes and jackets. Anyone who ever butchered a moose in winter will know. As far as I know, Marvin had ALL his footwear confiscated. No blood was found on his shoes, clothes and most importantly his car.. Which doesn't match the description of the car Arlo Olson saw when his mighty eyes of an owl, after a day and night of drinking hard Wild Turkey and smoking dope, spotted Marvin as one of the guys beating up Frankilin Dayton Jr from a distance that would make his head the size of a gnat on a dark October night. One month prior, Dale Depue and Shawn Aldridge apparently beat Stone and left him for dead. Per one of their girlfriends, the two took off the night Hartman was killed, to beat someone up and steal their money, to celebrate a birthday. What was the timeline because in a brutal attack a month later, they killed Maurice Smith in a brutal attack. What color was their car and how many doors on it.. what kind of DNA evidence was on it? What kind of drugs was Stone and Hartman doing before the murder? Was Hartmans family, brother and mother , involved in any drug activity? The boys were railroaded and justice not served on the real murderers or for the murdered white boy... Whose real activities are concealed behind the picture of a young All American boy in a football suit.. Versus... Continuous pictures of sullen young Native men... the DNM has as much to blame as the justice system..
If DePue and Aldridge are in fact the murderers.. It would open the Fairbankes Police Department up for a lawsuit for knowingly going after the wrong people while at the same time letting the real culprits... Resulting in the murder of Maurice Smith, a cabdriver killed 1 month later by DePue and Aldridge. DePue and Aldridge confessed and received less than half the sentences of the four young men in prison for Hartmans muder.. While Marvin and the rest are still protesting they are innocent to this day and received over twice the sentences as the non natives.
Thanks FDN. Simply reading this article has caused me personally (for reasons I can't disclose here)to anguish over the death of John Hartman, the inadequate investigation, and the prizon sentence of these 4 young men. What will this article do to help any of us?
Apparently, the SOA won't reopen the case. The witnesses, the suspects ALL drunk. Who really knows what really happened? I believe, if the FDN wants to rehash this tragedy, then the FDN should fund the trial to be re-examined.
If this article portrays truth, then we the readers are entitled to our opinions.
I believe DePueand Aldridge Stone know more than they are telling. The fact remains they, DePue/Aldridge killed a cab driver. What does that muderous act say?
I have native friends, and harbor NO racial adversity to any natives.
The SOA should get to bottom of this nightmare, reopen the case, and get the facts.
If these 4 young men are innocent, then the FDN has an obligation to stand behind their printed word.
you should read the story- John Hartman died of internal bleeding.. so your rant,
"Anyone who kicked up someone in the snow will have blood, tissue and hair stuck to their shoes, clothes and jackets. Anyone who ever butchered a moose in winter will know"
After reading everything, I feel that these boys were wrongly convicted and the way they put them together when they werent together and they had alibis makes me scared, this could have been anyone of us! There was no physical evidence on any of them, no blood or anything.
alaskangrrl wrote:"all I can think of is how his family feels about this series."
We wern't notified that the story was going to run. It was a shock to see all my horrid memeries plastered on the front page of the newspaper yesterday. Forced to relive all those painfull memories again. Then having to sell the papers all day at work. It would have been nice to get some kind of notice that the story was going to run.
Why why why are we doing this series?? I know people who were very close to John Hartman. This series of articles is ripping the scab off some very old wounds that were finally starting to heal. Causing pain that you cannot understand.
And running these stories as the front page top headline stories, as though they were happening right now? This is so unprofessional and sensationalistic. This is the most important story in Fairbanks for a week? Nothing else is important enough to lead?
I do not know if these 4 who were convicted killed this boy or not. All I know is that I met one of these boys by chance soon after he had been convicted, and he projected an air of guilt, not of one falsely accused.
And I can tell you that racism has nothing to do with this. I am speaking of someone who has herself and within her family many minority statuses. I've seen every kind of bigotry and racism, overt and subtle, that you can imagine. But this conviction was not about racism. It was about a jury hearing the evidence they had and making a choice based on that evidence. My heart goes out to the families of the convicted, and to the lost lives of those four boys, now men, in prison.
I beg you, New-Miner, PLEASE at least move this series off the headline page, to the B section Local News. I know it is useless to ask that you stop this travesty. I don't know whose bright idea this was, but considering the harm this series is doing, you should be ashamed of yourself.
I wish the News-Miner had not chosen to make all of the related documents available in PDF format. A very large percentage of readers have dialup Internet connections, and trying to download PDF files is a nightmare. I tried to open several of the files, and every time but one I received an error message saying that the file connection had timed out.
alaskaflower wrote: "I wish the News-Miner had not chosen to make all of the related documents available in PDF format."
I'm sorry you're having trouble. But some of the related documents are thousands of pages long. PDF was the only way to package them so that the most people could read them and so that they would be searchable.
My suggestion to anyone having trouble: save the document to your computer before opening it with your Adobe Reader. For Windows users this means right-clicking on the link and choosing "Save As..." For Mac people, control-click on the link and choose "Save Link As..."
Has there ever been any evidence(blood,Tissue,etc...) from the beating of Frank Dayton found on any of the 4 Men, Or in Marvin's car?
To me it seems unlikely to not have any evidence from not only Mr.John Hartman but also from Frank Dayton on any of these four guys or in the "getaway car".
In a quick, stop on the side of the road, kick the crap out of the kid and leave situation that did have blood on the ground at the scene (please read the online documents about the trial!) but in a small pool that could have developed after the assault had ended, why assume that there had to be blood? It was winter time and John had a coat and pants on, I dont see mention of a hat but would not doubt it seeing as how he was walking and it was winter; that being said why assume that the amount of clothing inhibited the transfer of crime scene evidence? Go read the confessions! Vent names every one, not in the first confession but in all three. I am sorry, the article can argue the details of how an interrogation are performed but the reality is that there are confessions that where not coherced that detail the acts of violence against the victim. If Chris Stone was supposed to be the victim and they got they wrong guy he will have to run and hide with that for the rest of his life. The other question I do not hear discussed is wether or not there was a relationship between the assailants and Depue. What if they where buddies and Chris had a mark on his head for ripping off one what had to be the bigger cocaine dealers in town? I was at the Eagles Hall that night and dont remember seeing any of them there but I do remember when word spread about the fight outside. There where close to 600 people there and unless someone spent the entire evening sitting and talking with Roberts their is no one who can convince me that they can vouche for his presence in the party that night. Seriously. And yes, the bathroom memory story was nice to read but the bathroom for the event was out in the hall near the stairs going up to the social club and the front exit and the seating was inside the gymnasium type dance hall, 600 people and a huge open room with lots of distance to the restrooms. I think we all know how time at parties go. I cant believe that this is still being screamed as a racist incident. If a white kid had said that he and his friends had done this we would have been done talking years ago but when people scream race every thing becomes suspect and sanity and common sense go out the window. One more question, I see a lot of "Native Pride" stickers in the back of vehicles since then. What would I be called if I had the same thing on the back of my truck saying "white Pride"?
3. ORLO OLSEN is still and always will be a SNITCH/LIAR (I knew this PUNK personally)
4. Marvin Roberts, a smart and promising young man, didn't confess because he was innocent. Read his transcripts, the other men, kids at the time, were drunk and easy prey for CORROPT detectives.
I did see that Marvin Roberts never confessed, the others who where old enough to make the choices to smoke dope, drink whisky and get behind the wheel of a car, and yes, speak for themselves which was done to a detective not once or twice but three times by one of them alone. That person also placed Roberts in the driver seat. SO if there is an issue with Marvin saying he was not there and at some party, because most guilty people say they are innocent also, why would Vent have made up his name and not just left him out completely? Or named someone else who might have also been there? See, that doesnt jive with what was said at the time BEFORE the group had a chance to come up with a group lie or talk to there attornies who 'coach' clients all the time. A corporate detective that was using the best known practices at the time that also arrived at the correct conclusion, these guys are guilty.
When Eugene Vent was arrested the Ak Motor Inn worker told the police he had maced him. Yet the arresting officer said there was know evidence that Vent had been maced.
I don't understand what the point of this story is. This is not journalism. You can't tell me the person that wrote this story didn't let their opinion show here. Was the point to make us all feel so bad for these boys that we would let them out of prison? I knew Marvin in school & I liked him. I also knew J.G. & all I can say say is that atleast Marvin is still alive. Was there a point to posting a video of his graduation? I don't see how it fits into this story except to remind me that he got the chance to graduate & J.G. never did. That was taken from him. As I sit here I feel sad & sick all over again, thanks guys for making this alittle harder on everyone for no reason at all. We'll never forget you J.G.! We'll probably never heal thanks to the nice people at the news miner!
I Never thought these young men were guilty and now I that feeling is even Stronger.How they were convicted with no DNA.I remember thinking when this happened that if they were guilty one would turn on the others to get a lighter sentence.That Never happened either.It is so sad that 4 young men are locked up and who ever did kill John is probably setting in a cell in the lower 48 for another crime.One day I really think we will know what really happened but we can't give the time back to these men nor the famalies.They should all be retried with All the facts.I am Thankful for this story because there was so much that I didn't know.To Marvin Roberts and his friends,you are in my prayers and will stay there.So many if us that don't know you but know of you are pulling for you.Someway somehow the truth will come out and the truth will set you Free!!
I didn't mean to leave John out of my prayers but they can't help him.I am a mother of 3 son's and my heart broke for John and his family.I am just saying that the people that killed this young man should pay ,but I don't feel like the young men that are paying for it are the guilty one's
Chris Stone was taken out of town to a deserted area by Dale Depue and friends. Using socks stuffed with pool balls they beat him and left him for dead. He ended up in the hospital with head injuries so severe that he claims years later to have seizures as a result. He lies to hospital staff and the police and says that he doesn't know who beat him. Later he admits that he does know and under oath names Dale Depue and others. He says it was about a girl; word on the street was that it was over drugs. Chris Stone says he and John Hartman parted ways at the end of Laurene Street but EJ Stephens' mother clearly saw them turn left at the end of Laurene Street and walk away together. A year later Dale Depue, Shawn Aldridge (whom Chris Stone described as his "good friend")and John Holloway are convicted of luring a cab driver into the woods; beating him; stomping him and cutting his throat; over a drug deal. Sean Kelly, John Hartman's older brother, admits that he had "ripped off" a cocaine dealer shortly before his brother's death.
So we have Chris Stone who lies and lies and lies. We have John Hartman closely associated with a hard core drug world (let's not forget that he and Chris Stone had spent the day consuming meth and stolen prescription medications and that John Hartman suffered a seizure as a result.) John with a brother who had just ripped off a major drug dealer. We have Dale Depue and Shawn Alderidge who lured a cab driver into the woods and slit his throat.
And we have Marvin Roberts who spent the evening sober; who rode around in his car with two friends also sober; who at the dance sat with a table of friends who were also not drinking. He wasn't with Eugene Vent or George Frese or Kevin Pease that night. When taken to the police station for questioning the next day Marvin begged for a lie detector test three different times. He also refused to plea bargain his case because to plead guilty to something he did not do would be a lie. Marvin had no police record; no history of violence. Scores of sober and reputable witnesses were available to testify not only that Marvin could not have been at the scene of the crime but more importantly, that Marvin WOULD NEVER have participated in such a crime. Marvin was sentenced to 33 years in prison for a crime he did not commit.
The police spent no time investigating the people with whom John Hartman was most closely associated and didn't even interview Chris Stone until several days after the murder.
It is absolutely fitting that the News Miner run this series of articles because there is a grave injustice in this case. If people are disturbed by this story, they should be. They should also be disturbed by the fact that Dale Depue and Shawn Alderidge were sentenced to 15 years in prison for slitting a man's throat while the four boys in this case were sentenced to 79, 77, 38 and 33 years. Anyone who believes that our legal system protects the innocent is delusional.
All kinds of questions! "If..., what happened?, I don't know what the point of this story is, etc". Well, in case it never dawned on you, and that you have been only focusing on certain parts of the story instead of looking at the whole investigation, you are never gonna get it! The point is that a boy was killed, 4 men were arrested with no evidence, key pieces to the investigation was never looked at or omitted, (referring to the last person known to be with Hartman), and this community is not over it, (well maybe some were and some weren't). Regardless of if the boys confessed while intoxicated or what not, there still has to be EVIDENCE to be convicted regardless of what race you are! That's what the point of the story is people! Are you ok with that? If you can be sent to jail for life based on circumstantial evidence, no DNA or unreliable intoxicated witnesses (ok I have to add superhuman vision)in this state where we live? This state will arrest you for DUI if you're breathalyzer is over the legal limit, yet this state relied on a drunk witness with (ok again,with superhuman vision) to convict these people. You know, their "Key Witness" that they wouldn't have had a case without! Something is definitely wrong here, and I hope that when this series is over, that no more gaps, or botched investigations will be handled again to this extreme for the sake of "innocent until PROVEN guilty", instead of "innocent, but I'll make you guilty even if I have no solid evidence"! I think they deserve a new trial due to all the inconsistencies, and because of unauthorized experiments by the jury etc., (who knows this list can go on) for the sake of all Alaskans that this story has brought new awareness to as an example of one way our justice system has handled a case. And by the way, if those men really are innocent, the state would definitely be sued! Could this be one of the reasons that such important 'new evidence' was cast aside, and why some of them are still incarcerated? Food for thought. Thank you DNM for opening up a can of worms that is just too important not to ignore, was justice really served?
I cannot speak for the guilt or innocence of these men serving time in jail and I won't. I can say that in my opinion, a series of articles that presents no new information, just consolidates what was already available, is disappointing, divisive and solves nothing for anybody. Without actual investigative reporting, this piece serves only to reinforce my thoughts and disappointments about "journalism" and what it has become.
I pray that all of these families find their justice.
Good grief. What a poorly written, poorly organized story. I truly hope the journalism students are learning something from this project -- it's clear they have a lot to learn about writing!
Everyone is talking about what a liar chris stone is, because that is where the article wants you to be led. I have yet to have one answer on why Eugene Vent would have named Marvin Roberts as the driver of the car if he wasnt there. Lets say Chris lied, and he most apparently has, that doesnt mean that Eugene Vent didnt name everyone that was with him and where they sat in the car including the driver, Marvin Roberts. How does that fit in with the conspiracy theory? It doesnt any more than the fact Pease is white and not native.
SueD hit the nail on the head. Those of us who know Marvin and his family cannot breathe well after reading this series, it hurts significantly. As for Hartmann, of course we hurt too, I can't imagine what his mother is still going through. Stone: there is something terribly wrong when his mother gets him out of the state as quickly as possible and has never returned--I know her personally. If I had the opportunity to speak with her, I would, and I wouldn't be afraid to ask why she got him out of Fairbanks so quickly.
JB, you need to read the interrogation transcripts. You'll see that Eugene didn't name anyone; the names were provided by the police interrogator. Early in the interview the name Vernon Roberts was mentioned. In the later interview the police interrogator had a copy of the school yearbook opened to a picture of the basketball team; he began naming team members one at a time telling Eugene that these were his buddies and that they were there when Eugene "stepped in the victims blood" and that his buddies were saying that Eugene was in a fight with the "victim". Marvin happened to be a member of that team. Best guess? The interrogator heard the name Vernon Roberts (no relation to Marvin) and saw a picture of Marvin Roberts and confused the two names. You'll also notice that Eugene mentioned a red car several times and the interrogator kept correcting him by saying "blue car"; the color of Marvin's car. Franklin Dayton described a light colored 4-door car being driven by his assailants. The police took Arlen Olsen into a police garage and showed him Marvin's car; not surprising then, that he would be able to describe it.
The police interrogators kept telling Eugene over and over where he had "been" and what he had "done"; this was when he was still intoxicated. Despite the fact that he kept telling them over and over what he thought they were questioning him about ("hooking up" two acquaintances who were looking to buy/sell marijuana). It's also clear that everytime the police referred to a fight at "9th and Barnette", Eugene thought they were talking about the party at the motel.
The tapes and transcripts of the interrogations themselves raise a lot of questions because there are inexplicable gaps and times that the tape is turned off for no apparent reason "we're going to go off tape here" says the policeman in Eugene Vent's interrogation. When they go back "on tape" there is clearly a change in the conversation.
What the readers should realize about these series of articles is that they do represent true investigative reporting; something that wasn't done at the time of the crime when the newspaper was simply rewriting police and DA press releases. Quite a bit of the information presented in these articles came from investigators hired by defense attorneys or from the journalism students and teacher. Much of this information represents facts that should have been discovered by the police investigation at the time of the crime but there was no real police investigation; no interest in interviewing the friend of Chris Stone's mother who called the police telling them to look into his previous assault. This whole case, from investigation to prosecution, was a travesty.
"This seven-part series offers no proof of guilt or innocence. It does document gaps in the police investigation that raise questions about the victim’s last conscious hours. It points out that the group convicted of the teen’s murder may have been prosecuted with forms of evidence identified later in national studies as contributing to some wrongful prosecutions elsewhere. And it shows how rulings from this state’s courts have undermined Alaska Native confidence in the justice system by keeping juries from weighing all that’s known about the crime."
Way to go FDN. No bias here, huh? "Decade of Doubt"...are you kidding me?!
Thank God these four MURDERERS are STILL behind bars.
How much racial bias did any of the investigators have? Did any of them profess any anti native bias prior to the murder? The clerk at the motel had a lot to do with the confusion.. Trying to act tuff and saying things that weren't true.. A typical would be. SueD is correct about the discrepancies in the justice for Natives and non-natives. Chris Stone and Arlo Olson were on the stand at a retrial hearing and admitted lying continuously to the cops. Everytime Aaron Ring or O'Bryant went to see them in jail, they would than change their story. They lied so much they forgot what they were lying about. Why did Chris Stone lie about why Hartman had Stones pants on? Why did Stone lie about what happened when they left EJ's house and what direction they took. Why didn't he mention he ran into Foodland?? Described by a reliable witness like a "Scared Rabbit". Lies and more lies.
It all boils down to hte two justice system in Alaska... The Colonial justice system has one for whites who can do no wrong and get lenient sentences or released. Another for Natives who are guilty and will get the maximum sentence allowed. Take a look at the Della Brown Murder around Anchorage. her murderer was let loose and ended up killing a white woman for which he did get convicted for. There's a few of you on here that shows your bias.. that since these guys are Natives.. Keep them locked up and throw away the key.. innocent or not.
The point of the story isn't that they are innocent. The point is that they weren't given a fair trial, which is a constitutional right in this great country of ours. And for everyone who criticizes the news-miner for printing this and saying "this isn't journalism"... Was the Watergate scandal "not real journalism?"
Digging up facts that expose a corrupted trial (or in Watergate's case, a corrupt president) isn't important? What if it was your loved one, who, guilty or not, was seventeen years old, blacked-out drunk, being interrogated by a cop who would refuse him any food to help him sober up so he could suggest names and places and events to lead to a confession? You'd be screaming then.
Did any of the cops go to the biker bar where Evelyn Thomas hung out?? Were any of the cops part of the drug distribution system in Fairbanks? I recall the stolen $10,000 from the cop shop that wasn't resolved. It's bad enough when the cops are acting like a bunch of keystone kops.. But part of the drug scene in Fairbanks.. It appears there's things that need to be brought out into the open.. And crooked cops is part of it.
I do thinks that it is important to keep Fairbanks aware of this case not only because a young man was killed but also because these young men in prison will want parole someday and we need to fight for what is right, whatever side you are on, to help make sure justice is served. On the other hand this article is nothing more than a put together story or hearsay and history, Please when reading this remember this is a group of journalists portrayal of a heinous crime, not all face not all fiction but a little of both. FDN someone should have used a little more discretion than to print this series in this matter, bad taste all the way.
These trials, the witnesses, the interrogations, the fact that there was no HARD EVIDENCE......it SCREAMS corrupt! I tell you what....for all those people saying this is not journalism, if it was MY CHILD in this situation God Bless ANYONE that would bring attention to this travesty!!! My prayers are with everyone involved.
This kind of reminds me of that song by Bob Dylan called (Hurricane) I believe. It tells the story of Rubin Carter who was falsely imprisoned for murder. Now I am not saying these four men are innocent but I know that there are corrupt people in all walks of life regardless if any of them are wearing uniforms or badges. I don't know if these men killed John Hartman or not but I do believe that the Lord will take care of everything in do time and he will reveal the truth.
For everyone of you that believe that these 4 men murdered John Hartman, PROVE IT!
"It does document gaps in the police investigation that raise questions about the victim’s last conscious hours. It points out that the group convicted of the teen’s murder may have been prosecuted with forms of evidence identified later in national studies as contributing to some wrongful prosecutions elsewhere. And it shows how rulings from this state’s courts have undermined Alaska Native confidence in the justice system by keeping juries from weighing all that’s known about the crime."
Sounds like these men were wrongfully convicted because all of the above provides REASONABLE DOUBT. For those of you who are confused what this means..."Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in the most important of your own affairs." ALSO, "This means that the proposition being presented by the government must be proven to the extent that there is no 'reasonable doubt' in the mind of a reasonable person that the defendant is guilty."
Paramedic 99708, please tell me that you are not a paramedic, PLEASE?? Are you sure you didn't commit this crime against John Hartman? Because if you didn't, I see alot of violence in your future on your part.
I am still keeping an open mind regardless of the convictions. I do not believe the FPD and the District Attorney. My opinion is that these young men are innocent because no one has proven guilt.
I remember this from along time ago and since day one I have believed the boys were innocent. I knew the boys, however never hung out with them, I know they were the typical boys who got into mischivious and were blamed for things they did not do. I have seen people get off charges for less and I firmly believe that any judge, jury or lawyer can see from all that is presented in this and in their files that this case deserves a second look into. I believe that the FPD was short staffed and in trying to solve the case Mr. Ring put the blame on these young men and made this crime fit these young men. He refused to look into any other avenue or even take time to look for other supsects but made the case revolve around the 4 they caught. I do hope that Mr Ring is no longer working on cases. I believe he should be put on a back burner and another detective take time to look at this case and should be boys be finally freed of a crime they did not commit then all other cases by Mr. Ring should be investigated.
People who do not want to see this story published because they think it "opens old wounds" are missing the point. No matter how old these wounds are they will never be healed as long as innocent men remain in prison for a crime they did not commit. I take issue with those who say that there is no new information being presented in this publication; there is a wealth of information being provided to the public for the first time; transcripts, witness statements; interviews that have never before been published. Anyone who takes the time to read through this information and really study it will understand why the Native community has issued resolutions year after year calling for justice in this case.
This should not be dismissed as a Native vs. Non-Native issue; every thinking citizen of Alaska should be outraged at what happened in this case. It was and is an egregious abuse of power by the legal system and it effects all of us. Imagine what you would do if you were accused of a crime you did not commit. How would you prove your innocence? Under the common law of our justice system we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but in fact this is not how the system works in Fairbanks and this case is a prime example of that. The district attorney treats justice as though it is a game. It doesn't matter whether the individuals are innocent or guilty; what matters is whether the the DA wins or loses. This was made evident in the way he presented "misinformation" to the initial Grand Jury. New evidence? The State of Alaska doesn't want to hear it. Doesn't matter if there is new evidence; the game has been played and the State "won".
The only people who should be upset about these article are the police who mishandled the case and the person or persons who really killed John Hartman. Oh yes, and Christopher Stone who has to know what actually happened that night.
dont talk to me about "boys" and "these young men". they are monsters and they are only still with us, because we dont have the death penalty in alaska. to bad about that!!!
"What if it was your loved one, who, guilty or not, was seventeen years old, blacked-out drunk, being interrogated by a cop who would refuse him any food to help him sober up so he could suggest names and places and events to lead to a confession? You'd be screaming then."
You are right...I would be screaming then....at my seventeen year old for being DRUNK!!! All in the community and family knew these kids were out getting high, etc...but no one cared then did they?
Where were the families, community leaders, people at the dance and all the rest who saw these kids, time and again under the influence, yet did nothing about it??? Where was all your outrage, care and compassion then?
In statements people mentioned seeing the kids drunk...even family members said they saw them stumbling by, etc...why didn't any step in then - - - prior to this tragedy occurring?
Easier to blame the police, etc then to take a hard look in the mirror I guess
"The notion a person would falsely confess to crimes as serious as murder defies common sense, observed Rob Warden, a law professor and director of Northwestern University’s Center for Wrongful Convictions. “Absent physical torture or threats, most of us can’t imagine confessing to a crime we did not commit,” he commented via e-mail. “But psychological techniques employed during police interrogations, while not as effective as torture, are nonetheless quite effective.”
This is the same reason that torturing people, like the U.S. has done at Gitmo, leads to useless information. This is also why the death penalty should be banned. Our legal system is flawed, and innocent people pay with their lives.
Fact of the mater is ONLY 2 of the 4 recanted their confessions, what now because you don't admit to a crime you didn't do it?
One thing this STORY hasn't touched is how this is all a product of bad parenting. As the story goes there is a history of drugs and violence with in each family of both the victim and the aslants. This would never have happened if young boys including the victim and his friends had not been out late at night doing drugs and drinking alcohol. Our Children need to have boundaries and discipline and be led by example. As the saying goes (no this is not a native jab) it takes a village to raise a child, well this village has failed these children and no one is taking responsibility for that.
As for the reporting in any news report there are some biases that show through. It’s the difference of hearing it on FOX news VS. CNN.
SUeD_ I have read the confessions and during the first interrogation that was thrown out and not used in the trial, the names of the others already arrested or being questioned where named by he officer, BUT in the following two interviews that happened hours apart, after rest and food he named the same people again. Point being that he named them before talking to the rest of the people involved or an attorney and having the ability to work on the story. Sorry, I did read the transcripts and I watched this closely the whole trial. No one put all four kids together but Vent and then seperately, Frese. They confessed and now think they have some way to get out of jail for a crime that they regret. I have to quit with this, so I wont say what I feel to be the truth past this point. I mean no disrespect to the families involved, on all sides. May peace and forgiveness be found but always remember that life has a way of balancing out mercy and justice.
These young men did not confess. The FPD does not have a definition of confession. Those two that even said anything about violence were drunk and were being lead to say what the cops wanted them to say. Just like Arlo Olson. The police couldn't even prove that those 4 men were even together that night.
Let's test FPD's definition of confession. I think that the mishandling of this case is why I am so upset.
Akguy, there were a number of Alaska Natives that spoke up as to the whereabouts of these young men. FPD got the names of these young men because of a yearbook shown to Eugene while he was intoxicated. Had the others not played basketball at Howard Luke Academy, they would not have been implicated.
fairbanksreader, The Fairbanks Police Department and the District Attorneys office has blatantly disregarded all of these young men's "village". Comparing Alaska Natives to Spartacus. I did not know these young men, but I would have stood up for them supporting what I could. I would not provide a false alibi as that seems to be what FPD is believing happened with those reputable witnesses.
tncinc, I am gonna pray for you today. I'm sure those young men think the same about FPD and the district attorney.
It really is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when these boys get out, I hope the community of Fairbanks gives them a chance. Not because they paid a debt to society, but because society did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they had a debt to pay.
InupiaqDiva- When I say that the "village has failed these men" I do not mean after the crime. It’s not the government’s job to raise a child or to teach parents, this is where the "village" or community comes in, and that is where I place the blame. The entire article is full of drugs, crime, underage drinking and other things that NO ONE should be a part of. All the young men, including the John Hartman were brought up in this environment. That has nothing to do with FPD.
It's sad that a lot of people in this forum don't seem to want to address the root of this whole tragedy: substance abuse. I am thoroughly ashamed of all the parents and adults who knew what ALL of these kids were up to that night and just didn't care (for whatever reason) or worse, saw it, and did NOTHING to prevent it. If only someone had at least said no to underage drinking at the wedding reception...
It's a telling picture of Alaska's cycle of substance abuse from parents to children and the horror that comes of it.
Dove: You are right...there was a hearing in Anchorage on Tuesday. Here's a link to the story about the latest efforts by Eugene Vent to overturn his conviction.
Following Tuesday’s hearing, Esch indicated he’ll address Vent’s current arguments without testing that deadline. “I have no interest in dragging this out.” per DNM update (thank you Robinson Duffy)
This said, and all of the comments posted here on this DNM article DEMAND another look at these boy's testimony, forced confession, and lack of DNA, forensic evidense.
We owe these men,, Alaska residents and fellow citizens the opportunity to re-examine the FACTS.
Furthermore, I was myself wrongly accused and jailed because someone lied to FPD. I have since WON every court appearance, defending myself against falsified testimony.
If any of you believe in justice, than you need to stand up for the truth, honesty, and our Alaska judicial system potential errors barring any racial, supposed allegations.
Discuss the Case
For convenience and continuity of discussion we are offering a single portal for comments on Decade of Doubt instead of standard commenting on each of the many stories.
We expect discussion of a sensitive nature with this series, but this string is subject to the same reader participation agreement as the rest of this Web site.
By its nature, this series invites discussion of race and violent acts. Experience tells us that this will be difficult for readers to discuss without making racist statements. The associated court documents and audio files online are explicit and contain profanity. But none of this means community discussion should be explicit, profane or racially charged. There are many news stories here that explore the case tastefully. Use their tone as your guide.
We all want a full, open and productive exchange on this series, and that means participating in a forum that is welcoming to all points of view without insult or attack.
Kelly Bostian
Managing editor
Fairbanks Daily News-Miner
I still remember watching the news report about this attack. It was so upseting and truly a turning point for our town.
This boy was so young and looked like the "All American Boy" in his photos. He reminded me of my brother and I cried for him & his mother while I watched.
We found out later that this boy was getting into trouble, just like the boys that are accused of this.
I have read everything I was able to find on this story because I have always felt like they had some of the wrong people. I have thought that they may have had 1 or 2 of the people involved, but those boys were too cowardly to come forward and clear their friends.
I have always thought that Chris Stone was involved. It just makes sense considering John was found in Chris' pants.
It is amazing though, that after all these years no one has come forward with any "real" evidence.
I never though Roberts car could have been involved - where is the forensic evidence??
It will be interesting to see how the rest of this turns out. I sure hope they have all of the people involved with this, because I know that with everything I have read (and I am white) I could NOT have convicted some of these boys!!
After reading these articles, I can only say that my initial suspicion has been confirmed: these are not impartial pieces of academic reporting, but sensational pieces carefully crafted to bring about a sense of, if you will, 'shock and awe'. There are major differences in approach to a subject, especially in the field of journalism, and these remind me, unfortunately, of the kinds of reporting one might expect to see on CourtTV, or in a glossy magazine. These are not unbiased, informational newspaper articles.
Once again I think this case needs to go to trial one more time. From what I understand Marvin Roberts was at a wedding and had witnesses to prove it. In the paper the police admitted they used lying tactics about false evidence to obtain "CONFESSIONS". The use of those tactics have been proven to imprison innocent people for crimes they did not commit. I believe that boy is in jail for something he didn't do.
Our hearts go out to the Hartman family and all families involved.
Based on everything that has been posted here with regards to this story, I believe that 4 murderers are rightfully behind bars for the better part of their lives and the streets of Fairbanks are a little bit safer.
The rants of racism against natives only reinforces that belief. The race card is the last resort of the guilty.
I SERIOUSLY HAVE MY DOULBTS ABOUT MOST OF THE GUYS THAT WERE CHARGED...FROM WHAT I SAW ON THIS ARTICLE IT MAKES ME HAVE EVEN MORE DOULBTS... HOPEFULLY ONE OF THESE DAYS THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED..MY HEART GOES OUT TO EVERYONE INVOLVED..ESPECIALLY TO THE FAMILIES OF THE GUYS THAT I BELIEVE WERE WRONGLY CHARGED...
We should soon hope that these boys get out jail for something they did not do.
This entire situation is the unfortunate result of too many people simultaneously screaming about discrimination and insisting the legal system does more faster to make our city safe, whilst community leaders throw their political clout behind one "side" or the other, and journalists presented the story incompletely to create heated public opinion.
Let's face it people, our legal system leaves a lot to be desired in this day and age. A person or persons killed a young man. The investigation and prosecution of this murder causes many to wonder about the quality, fairness and righteousness of our police and courts.
Maybe those who truly want the truth, who genuinely want justice, could stick to the facts, instead of trying to convince us all that that those involved in this crime were all helpless, innocent, victimized young men. That not enough people care about the incarcerated because they were Native born. That the only reason they are in prison in the first place is because they the white establishment just wants to point fingers at Natives.
That attitude really annoys me. I am not Native, but my family has been in Alaska for four generations, and I have lived in the Interior my entire life, since before Alaskan Natives were referred to as Natives. Yes, there is prejudice here, but I have seen far more blatant prejudice practiced by Natives toward non-Natives in the past couple of decades, and it seems to me that this prejudice rears it's head every time something bad happens in this great city.
I believe, from the facts I know, that the "system" failed where this crime is concerned. Perhaps we could stick to the fact that it failed, instead of deciding prejudice is the reason why. Because it fails a lot of people, both Native AND non-Native.
they are innocent, knew it from the beginning. They got railroaded by deceitful fairbanks police force who extacted a false confession. Roberts is a smart kid, he didn't take the plea deal because he's innocent, if he took the deal he would be out now, but he could never live with himself for railroading his fellow innocents.
The real crime is we have innocent people in jail. Leonard Peltier of Alaska!
Let's not forget that the system has failed John Hartman and his family also. The person(s) that actually did commit this crime has not been charged, convicted, and sentenced for this crime. I agree with magsak in that we should keep our 'eye on the ball' when it comes to the facts of the case.
As for the racial comments, I am Alaska Native, I can confidently say that I grew up during a time when being native was not cool. That is why I hold my head high, confident of my heritage and I am passing that down to my children. This is the time that Alaska Natives/American Indians can be proud to be who they are. If you are misconstruing that confidence, that pride, then that is your issue.
Also, the fact of the matter is, the FPD blatantly stated that 'Natives stick together'. This, for me, pulled the racial card. I finally got around to reading those police interviews. FPD, those police officers specifically, did a horrible job. They need to be held accountable for their actions/lack of investigating. They blindly investigated, interrogated who they wanted to. Tunnel vision. I hope that this forum opens minds and I applaud Brian for his efforts. Brian, you and your journalism students have done more for those 4 young men than FPD. Keep up your efforts.
Evalyn Thomas, I will pray for you and your family. I will pray that you get the closure you deserve. I pray for the closure that will start the racial healing process the community needs. Until then, we need to keep an open mind.
It would be a lot easier to sympathize with these 4 guys if they were even a little bit good citizens. The consistent background of drug use and violent behavior throughout this whole story make that very difficult though. I have never read a story, even a long one, as thoroughly full of bad characters. To me, all 4 seemed bound for jail sooner or later, and the judge had it right on when he said of one of them that it was a question of when, not if, he would end up murdering. Several others in the story are just as bound for jail, or already there.
This is an old story with nothing new to it. When or if there is "new evidence" concerning this crime that is when we should be reading about it, until then don't try to convince people with good story telling that these boys were railroaded.
I have read the interviews and the court transcript. The police used acceptable tactics when they were doing the investigation. We might not agree with those tactics but they were acceptable tactics used by almost all law enforcement officers in the United States both white and non-white officers, from the smallest local police department to the FBI.
I do feel sorry for these boys and their families, along with the victim and his family. If these boys did not do it then the real person or persons should come forward and prove that these boys are innocent. I pray that if these boys are innocent then the guilty parties will come forward and justice will be served.
True our justice system isn't perfect, but at least these boys were able to go to court and get a "fair hearing" unlike some countries where you are guilty until proven innocent. They are also given the right to appeal their convictions unlike in other countries.
We should also be glad that they are serving time in jail instead of being executed for something that they might not have done.
If this was a case of improper prosecution then we need to know and heads need to role. I think some facts fit but other facts just seem odd. If the killer of John Hartman has been free for last ten years it would be unforgivable.
Prejudice can be both subtle and insidious. Even though Arlo Olsen testified that he did not know Marvin Roberts, was not acquainted with him, a jury believed that he could identify Marvin, a stranger, in the dark, at 550 feet away. "These Native kids all know each other" said one non-native courtroom observer explaining Arlo Olsen's extraordinary night vision.
The Fairbanks police department linked these four young men together on the basis of a photo of a basketball team in high school year book. Arlo Olsen with his apparent superpower night vision was the only person who said (much later) that he saw these boys together. Many reputable witnesses testified that the young men were not together the night John Hartman died. But the all-white jury allowed the state's attorney to discredit the sworn testimony of these witnesses when he closed with his infamous "Spartacus" statement implying that all Natives stick together and will lie for each other.
The headlines and photos in the News Miner implied that the murder was a race related "spree" attack since there was no motive for these four boys to have killed John Hartman and in the weeks following, most of the people of Fairbanks believed what they read in the newspaper despite the fact that newspaper was simply printing exaggerated statements from the police and district attorney.
Prejudice, whether racial or social class in origin, has resulted in these four young men spending their lives in prison for a crime that they did not commit.
To all the wanna be detectives out there. Is it possible to stomp a person to death and have no physical evidence on you are in your car? Not only no physical evidence on you but the other people convicted in this crime. What are the chances of that? One would intend to think that with all the blood on the victim there would be at least one speck of the victims blood on the accused are at least in the accused car.
The confession that occured for the third time after sleep, family counsel and food said it all. All four kids pin pointed and named for location in car and what they did. The mishandling was a joke and there may be more as to wether the kids picked out Chris and John got hurt by just being with him but they got the right kids. From how the body was found it sounds like they 'curbed' him. Chris may have been the mark but John was killed. This is a story of bad DA's and judges not racism and not having the innocent impisoned.
Lookin good DNM -
I'll bet the racial tension you are stirring up with this makes you proud! Hope the bottom line is lookin good over this sensationalism.
None of you really knows what happened that night - for you were not there!
Enough with the 'crime they did not commit' statements! If they didn't commit the crime, find those that did. Until then, the criminal justice system has deemed these youths guilty and they are where they deserve to be - nothing more, nothing less.
I would think the same no matter what their race, color or creed. I do think, however, that if another ethnicity would have been convicted, this story would not have been dragged off the shelf as it has here!
This story should have stayed on the shelf unless there was actually new evidence to bring forward! I am ashamed of you DNM! I hope you will take your share of the blame if something untoward happens because of this 'journalism'
Irresponsible as usual - and to think i was considering renewing my subscription after some years without....wont happen until some adult supervision is found to run the DNM.
Exactly Olddog. It's difficult to believe that the prosecution got a conviction with zero DNA and zero forensic evidence. The evidence is purely circumstantial. The suspects were drunk. The witnesses were drunk. Who can remember any facts accurately, when you're drunk? The interrogation, and not to ridicule our Fairbanks Police, should never have occurred, while the suspects were still under the influence of alcohol.
It seems the confession was forced with intimidation and lies. Granted one or two of these 4 young men had some criminal history, but so do many other Alaskans.
My first question regarding Stone, even prior to reading about his involvement with John Hartman the night of the assault was "where was Chris Stone, while his friend was being pulverized?" Why doesn't Chris Stone remember "who" beat him up? There's too much inconsistency in Stone's story. I wouldn't rule out the Cocaine dealer's potential involvement either.
Had Vent or Frese beaten John Hartman, there would have been some DNA on their clothes. Olsen is/was a drunk and how could he possibly have seen anything accurately?
I would be apt to investigate Dupe more intensely. As Stone said, Dupe partook to beat Stone up.
I suspect there is hush regarding the guys who beat up Stone.
The sexual assault isn't even confirmed. There was no blood on the pants to indicate a sexual assault.
Oct 11, 1997 was a wild night apparently in downtown Fairbanks. You can't blame the Fairbanks police for negligence, when they are overwelmed with inebriates, DV calls and understaffed.
You can't believe jail snitches.
It's a botched investigation. Other leads were not investigated.
I'm not convinced the suspects received a fair trial or that they are guilty. I vote YES for a new trial.
Sadly, Dove, the court system doesn't
I wonder why that is....racism I bet....
Unfortunately, I also have to agree with AKguy as far as the DNM running this story. It's in poor taste and will aggravate old wounds. I'm not entirely convinced the 4 guys in jail are guilty of murdering John Hartman. They certainly were on a bad path Oct 11, 1997.
Whoever did this to John frankly deserves the same done to them. My kids won't be out on the town after dark!
Additionally Dick Madson, and Judge Downes were/are two very established a good attorneys.
Bless you John Hartman.
No AKguy. This isn't racism. The sole remark that "natives all stick together" is what fueled the racism card. Frankly they do, and I don't say that negatively. I know lots of natives, who are friends of mine.
Dove -
you make an excellent point in a statement above 'my kids wont be out on the town after dark'
That's the kicker really, isn't it...all these young men running the streets, most underage and drunk. In some cases relatives actually saw their kin stumble by and did nothing.
ultimately it leads back to the parenting, no? When I was 15 or 17 there was no way my parents would have allowed me to be partying it up in some dive motels....
Maybe the society as a whole can learn from this...
whether innocent or guilty, alive or dead - many wasted lives and many more effected by poor judgment and a loose family structure I think
I hope this series doesn't weigh too greatly on the family of Hartman...God Bless
A few months ago a letter to the editor ran. It was from one of the young men in prison for this crime, I followed this case back when and his letter was so filled with hate and distain and disregard for the victim and his family, and so filled with selfish statements to help get out of jail. I had no doubt that even with the inconsistencies in the prosecution we have one of the murders behind bars.
Please Pray for all the families involved it is a hard time for all.
Stone's mother whisked him out of state and has never been back since.
At least four people witnessed Marvin at the reception at the time of the attack.
justice for these murderers would have been the death penalty.I believe that they did it and I hope one day they will tell the truth.I think its rediculous that these guys beat John....hitting his face over and over and over until rendered unconcious....did they stop then?...NO.....that wasnt enough....so they sexually assulted him too.I wish these guys would get what they deserve....a long,drawn out beating until unconciousness sinks in and they need a machine to keep them alive....this is only my opinion.
I fail to see how rehashing this violent crime is going to help the community deal with the issues it presents, it seems to fuel the racism. I went to school with John Hartman and I am part Native, it was a terrible thing that happened, all I can think of is how his family feels about this series. Native or non-Native, people are people, and when this happened we lost a promising young man, it is irrelevant to me what race the people are that committed the crime.
The case is muddled. Ask investigator Aaron Rings classmates at his high school in Fairbanks if he had a racist attitude against Alaska Natives. Ask the same for O'Bryant, who in the courtroom is the one that stated "Don't believe village people. They'll back each other.. No matter what"!
Yep the tens of people who vouched for Marvin Roberts were not to be believed.
Anyone who kicked up someone in the snow will have blood, tissue and hair stuck to their shoes, clothes and jackets. Anyone who ever butchered a moose in winter will know. As far as I know, Marvin had ALL his footwear confiscated. No blood was found on his shoes, clothes and most importantly his car.. Which doesn't match the description of the car Arlo Olson saw when his mighty eyes of an owl, after a day and night of drinking hard Wild Turkey and smoking dope, spotted Marvin as one of the guys beating up Frankilin Dayton Jr from a distance that would make his head the size of a gnat on a dark October night.
One month prior, Dale Depue and Shawn Aldridge apparently beat Stone and left him for dead. Per one of their girlfriends, the two took off the night Hartman was killed, to beat someone up and steal their money, to celebrate a birthday. What was the timeline because in a brutal attack a month later, they killed Maurice Smith in a brutal attack. What color was their car and how many doors on it.. what kind of DNA evidence was on it?
What kind of drugs was Stone and Hartman doing before the murder? Was Hartmans family, brother and mother , involved in any drug activity?
The boys were railroaded and justice not served on the real murderers or for the murdered white boy... Whose real activities are concealed behind the picture of a young All American boy in a football suit.. Versus... Continuous pictures of sullen young Native men... the DNM has as much to blame as the justice system..
If DePue and Aldridge are in fact the murderers.. It would open the Fairbankes Police Department up for a lawsuit for knowingly going after the wrong people while at the same time letting the real culprits... Resulting in the murder of Maurice Smith, a cabdriver killed 1 month later by DePue and Aldridge.
DePue and Aldridge confessed and received less than half the sentences of the four young men in prison for Hartmans muder.. While Marvin and the rest are still protesting they are innocent to this day and received over twice the sentences as the non natives.
Thanks FDN. Simply reading this article has caused me personally (for reasons I can't disclose here)to anguish over the death of John Hartman, the inadequate investigation, and the prizon sentence of these 4 young men. What will this article do to help any of us?
Apparently, the SOA won't reopen the case. The witnesses, the suspects ALL drunk. Who really knows what really happened? I believe, if the FDN wants to rehash this tragedy, then the FDN should fund the trial to be re-examined.
If this article portrays truth, then we the readers are entitled to our opinions.
I believe DePueand Aldridge Stone know more than they are telling. The fact remains they, DePue/Aldridge killed a cab driver. What does that muderous act say?
I have native friends, and harbor NO racial adversity to any natives.
The SOA should get to bottom of this nightmare, reopen the case, and get the facts.
If these 4 young men are innocent, then the FDN has an obligation to stand behind their printed word.
CurtJ:
you should read the story- John Hartman died of internal bleeding.. so your rant,
"Anyone who kicked up someone in the snow will have blood, tissue and hair stuck to their shoes, clothes and jackets. Anyone who ever butchered a moose in winter will know"
is invalid, as are the rest of your arguments.
Not true NP79. Anyone with any criminal forensic knowledge will tell you that blood spatters, even the minutest of drops would show up in testing.
I have to remove myself from this sensationalized drama. It's simply too painful. I pray justice can somehow be truly served here.
Big error on the DNM's part to publish this article. BIG MISTAKE!
Quoting from the DNM article:
"There was no telltale footprint or bloody shoe. Hartman's injuries were mainly internal and he bled very little."
So the fact that no blood was found on shoes, clothes and jackets of those convicted does not exonerate them of murder in and of itself!
... but hey, maybe you have a future as a defense lawyer.
I have read the transcripts and other info provided on this site http://www.uaf.edu/journal/extreme/Hartm...
After reading everything, I feel that these boys were wrongly convicted and the way they put them together when they werent together and they had alibis makes me scared, this could have been anyone of us! There was no physical evidence on any of them, no blood or anything.
alaskangrrl wrote:"all I can think of is how his family feels about this series."
We wern't notified that the story was going to run. It was a shock to see all my horrid memeries plastered on the front page of the newspaper yesterday. Forced to relive all those painfull memories again. Then having to sell the papers all day at work. It would have been nice to get some kind of notice that the story was going to run.
Why why why are we doing this series?? I know people who were very close to John Hartman. This series of articles is ripping the scab off some very old wounds that were finally starting to heal. Causing pain that you cannot understand.
And running these stories as the front page top headline stories, as though they were happening right now? This is so unprofessional and sensationalistic. This is the most important story in Fairbanks for a week? Nothing else is important enough to lead?
I do not know if these 4 who were convicted killed this boy or not. All I know is that I met one of these boys by chance soon after he had been convicted, and he projected an air of guilt, not of one falsely accused.
And I can tell you that racism has nothing to do with this. I am speaking of someone who has herself and within her family many minority statuses. I've seen every kind of bigotry and racism, overt and subtle, that you can imagine. But this conviction was not about racism. It was about a jury hearing the evidence they had and making a choice based on that evidence. My heart goes out to the families of the convicted, and to the lost lives of those four boys, now men, in prison.
I beg you, New-Miner, PLEASE at least move this series off the headline page, to the B section Local News. I know it is useless to ask that you stop this travesty. I don't know whose bright idea this was, but considering the harm this series is doing, you should be ashamed of yourself.
I wish the News-Miner had not chosen to make all of the related documents available in PDF format. A very large percentage of readers have dialup Internet connections, and trying to download PDF files is a nightmare. I tried to open several of the files, and every time but one I received an error message saying that the file connection had timed out.
alaskaflower wrote: "I wish the News-Miner had not chosen to make all of the related documents available in PDF format."
I'm sorry you're having trouble. But some of the related documents are thousands of pages long. PDF was the only way to package them so that the most people could read them and so that they would be searchable.
My suggestion to anyone having trouble: save the document to your computer before opening it with your Adobe Reader. For Windows users this means right-clicking on the link and choosing "Save As..." For Mac people, control-click on the link and choose "Save Link As..."
Good luck!
Has there ever been any evidence(blood,Tissue,etc...) from the beating of Frank Dayton found on any of the 4 Men, Or in Marvin's car?
To me it seems unlikely to not have any evidence from not only Mr.John Hartman but also from Frank Dayton on any of these four guys or in the "getaway car".
Thanks for the reminder, Robinson. I'd forgotten you could do that.
In a quick, stop on the side of the road, kick the crap out of the kid and leave situation that did have blood on the ground at the scene (please read the online documents about the trial!) but in a small pool that could have developed after the assault had ended, why assume that there had to be blood? It was winter time and John had a coat and pants on, I dont see mention of a hat but would not doubt it seeing as how he was walking and it was winter; that being said why assume that the amount of clothing inhibited the transfer of crime scene evidence?
Go read the confessions! Vent names every one, not in the first confession but in all three. I am sorry, the article can argue the details of how an interrogation are performed but the reality is that there are confessions that where not coherced that detail the acts of violence against the victim. If Chris Stone was supposed to be the victim and they got they wrong guy he will have to run and hide with that for the rest of his life. The other question I do not hear discussed is wether or not there was a relationship between the assailants and Depue. What if they where buddies and Chris had a mark on his head for ripping off one what had to be the bigger cocaine dealers in town? I was at the Eagles Hall that night and dont remember seeing any of them there but I do remember when word spread about the fight outside. There where close to 600 people there and unless someone spent the entire evening sitting and talking with Roberts their is no one who can convince me that they can vouche for his presence in the party that night. Seriously. And yes, the bathroom memory story was nice to read but the bathroom for the event was out in the hall near the stairs going up to the social club and the front exit and the seating was inside the gymnasium type dance hall, 600 people and a huge open room with lots of distance to the restrooms. I think we all know how time at parties go. I cant believe that this is still being screamed as a racist incident. If a white kid had said that he and his friends had done this we would have been done talking years ago but when people scream race every thing becomes suspect and sanity and common sense go out the window.
One more question, I see a lot of "Native Pride" stickers in the back of vehicles since then. What would I be called if I had the same thing on the back of my truck saying "white Pride"?
For all of you who think this is poor judgment on the DNM's part
http://www.medianewsgroup.com/contactus/...
I believe that is a link to the group who owns the DNM - maybe you can tell them what you think of their decision to publish
We all know the people who run the DNM think they can do no harm....
Here are the facts:
1. Mr. J. Hartman is deceased
2. The four men are STILL innocent
3. ORLO OLSEN is still and always will be a SNITCH/LIAR (I knew this PUNK personally)
4. Marvin Roberts, a smart and promising young man, didn't confess because he was innocent. Read his transcripts, the other men, kids at the time, were drunk and easy prey for CORROPT detectives.
I did see that Marvin Roberts never confessed, the others who where old enough to make the choices to smoke dope, drink whisky and get behind the wheel of a car, and yes, speak for themselves which was done to a detective not once or twice but three times by one of them alone. That person also placed Roberts in the driver seat. SO if there is an issue with Marvin saying he was not there and at some party, because most guilty people say they are innocent also, why would Vent have made up his name and not just left him out completely? Or named someone else who might have also been there? See, that doesnt jive with what was said at the time BEFORE the group had a chance to come up with a group lie or talk to there attornies who 'coach' clients all the time.
A corporate detective that was using the best known practices at the time that also arrived at the correct conclusion, these guys are guilty.
When Eugene Vent was arrested the Ak Motor Inn worker told the police he had maced him. Yet the arresting officer said there was know evidence that Vent had been maced.
Why could that be so?
I don't understand what the point of this story is. This is not journalism. You can't tell me the person that wrote this story didn't let their opinion show here. Was the point to make us all feel so bad for these boys that we would let them out of prison? I knew Marvin in school & I liked him. I also knew J.G. & all I can say say is that atleast Marvin is still alive. Was there a point to posting a video of his graduation? I don't see how it fits into this story except to remind me that he got the chance to graduate & J.G. never did. That was taken from him. As I sit here I feel sad & sick all over again, thanks guys for making this alittle harder on everyone for no reason at all. We'll never forget you J.G.! We'll probably never heal thanks to the nice people at the news miner!
I Never thought these young men were guilty and now I that feeling is even Stronger.How they were convicted with no DNA.I remember thinking when this happened that if they were guilty one would turn on the others to get a lighter sentence.That Never happened either.It is so sad that 4 young men are locked up and who ever did kill John is probably setting in a cell in the lower 48 for another crime.One day I really think we will know what really happened but we can't give the time back to these men nor the famalies.They should all be retried with All the facts.I am Thankful for this story because there was so much that I didn't know.To Marvin Roberts and his friends,you are in my prayers and will stay there.So many if us that don't know you but know of you are pulling for you.Someway somehow the truth will come out and the truth will set you Free!!
Sadly, Beckie
you note that Marvin is in your prayers....
however - you left out the poor boy who died - maybe he could use a prayer or two also...
The bias on this topic is disgusting, both in the comments and from the News Miner - the series should be removed as it offers no new insight
I didn't mean to leave John out of my prayers but they can't help him.I am a mother of 3 son's and my heart broke for John and his family.I am just saying that the people that killed this young man should pay ,but I don't feel like the young men that are paying for it are the guilty one's
Chris Stone was taken out of town to a deserted area by Dale Depue and friends. Using socks stuffed with pool balls they beat him and left him for dead. He ended up in the hospital with head injuries so severe that he claims years later to have seizures as a result. He lies to hospital staff and the police and says that he doesn't know who beat him. Later he admits that he does know and under oath names Dale Depue and others. He says it was about a girl; word on the street was that it was over drugs. Chris Stone says he and John Hartman parted ways at the end of Laurene Street but EJ Stephens' mother clearly saw them turn left at the end of Laurene Street and walk away together. A year later Dale Depue, Shawn Aldridge (whom Chris Stone described as his "good friend")and John Holloway are convicted of luring a cab driver into the woods; beating him; stomping him and cutting his throat; over a drug deal. Sean Kelly, John Hartman's older brother, admits that he had "ripped off" a cocaine dealer shortly before his brother's death.
So we have Chris Stone who lies and lies and lies. We have John Hartman closely associated with a hard core drug world (let's not forget that he and Chris Stone had spent the day consuming meth and stolen prescription medications and that John Hartman suffered a seizure as a result.) John with a brother who had just ripped off a major drug dealer. We have Dale Depue and Shawn Alderidge who lured a cab driver into the woods and slit his throat.
And we have Marvin Roberts who spent the evening sober; who rode around in his car with two friends also sober; who at the dance sat with a table of friends who were also not drinking. He wasn't with Eugene Vent or George Frese or Kevin Pease that night. When taken to the police station for questioning the next day Marvin begged for a lie detector test three different times. He also refused to plea bargain his case because to plead guilty to something he did not do would be a lie. Marvin had no police record; no history of violence. Scores of sober and reputable witnesses were available to testify not only that Marvin could not have been at the scene of the crime but more importantly, that Marvin WOULD NEVER have participated in such a crime. Marvin was sentenced to 33 years in prison for a crime he did not commit.
The police spent no time investigating the people with whom John Hartman was most closely associated and didn't even interview Chris Stone until several days after the murder.
It is absolutely fitting that the News Miner run this series of articles because there is a grave injustice in this case. If people are disturbed by this story, they should be. They should also be disturbed by the fact that Dale Depue and Shawn Alderidge were sentenced to 15 years in prison for slitting a man's throat while the four boys in this case were sentenced to 79, 77, 38 and 33 years. Anyone who believes that our legal system protects the innocent is delusional.
All kinds of questions! "If..., what happened?, I don't know what the point of this story is, etc". Well, in case it never dawned on you, and that you have been only focusing on certain parts of the story instead of looking at the whole investigation, you are never gonna get it! The point is that a boy was killed, 4 men were arrested with no evidence, key pieces to the investigation was never looked at or omitted, (referring to the last person known to be with Hartman), and this community is not over it, (well maybe some were and some weren't). Regardless of if the boys confessed while intoxicated or what not, there still has to be EVIDENCE to be convicted regardless of what race you are! That's what the point of the story is people! Are you ok with that? If you can be sent to jail for life based on circumstantial evidence, no DNA or unreliable intoxicated witnesses (ok I have to add superhuman vision)in this state where we live? This state will arrest you for DUI if you're breathalyzer is over the legal limit, yet this state relied on a drunk witness with (ok again,with superhuman vision) to convict these people. You know, their "Key Witness" that they wouldn't have had a case without! Something is definitely wrong here, and I hope that when this series is over, that no more gaps, or botched investigations will be handled again to this extreme for the sake of "innocent until PROVEN guilty", instead of "innocent, but I'll make you guilty even if I have no solid evidence"! I think they deserve a new trial due to all the inconsistencies, and because of unauthorized experiments by the jury etc., (who knows this list can go on) for the sake of all Alaskans that this story has brought new awareness to as an example of one way our justice system has handled a case. And by the way, if those men really are innocent, the state would definitely be sued! Could this be one of the reasons that such important 'new evidence' was cast aside, and why some of them are still incarcerated? Food for thought. Thank you DNM for opening up a can of worms that is just too important not to ignore, was justice really served?
I cannot speak for the guilt or innocence of these men serving time in jail and I won't. I can say that in my opinion, a series of articles that presents no new information, just consolidates what was already available, is disappointing, divisive and solves nothing for anybody. Without actual investigative reporting, this piece serves only to reinforce my thoughts and disappointments about "journalism" and what it has become.
I pray that all of these families find their justice.
Well said, Dana...
Good grief. What a poorly written, poorly organized story. I truly hope the journalism students are learning something from this project -- it's clear they have a lot to learn about writing!
Everyone is talking about what a liar chris stone is, because that is where the article wants you to be led. I have yet to have one answer on why Eugene Vent would have named Marvin Roberts as the driver of the car if he wasnt there. Lets say Chris lied, and he most apparently has, that doesnt mean that Eugene Vent didnt name everyone that was with him and where they sat in the car including the driver, Marvin Roberts. How does that fit in with the conspiracy theory? It doesnt any more than the fact Pease is white and not native.
SueD hit the nail on the head. Those of us who know Marvin and his family cannot breathe well after reading this series, it hurts significantly. As for Hartmann, of course we hurt too, I can't imagine what his mother is still going through. Stone: there is something terribly wrong when his mother gets him out of the state as quickly as possible and has never returned--I know her personally. If I had the opportunity to speak with her, I would, and I wouldn't be afraid to ask why she got him out of Fairbanks so quickly.
JB, you need to read the interrogation transcripts. You'll see that Eugene didn't name anyone; the names were provided by the police interrogator. Early in the interview the name Vernon Roberts was mentioned. In the later interview the police interrogator had a copy of the school yearbook opened to a picture of the basketball team; he began naming team members one at a time telling Eugene that these were his buddies and that they were there when Eugene "stepped in the victims blood" and that his buddies were saying that Eugene was in a fight with the "victim". Marvin happened to be a member of that team. Best guess? The interrogator heard the name Vernon Roberts (no relation to Marvin) and saw a picture of Marvin Roberts and confused the two names. You'll also notice that Eugene mentioned a red car several times and the interrogator kept correcting him by saying "blue car"; the color of Marvin's car. Franklin Dayton described a light colored 4-door car being driven by his assailants. The police took Arlen Olsen into a police garage and showed him Marvin's car; not surprising then, that he would be able to describe it.
The police interrogators kept telling Eugene over and over where he had "been" and what he had "done"; this was when he was still intoxicated. Despite the fact that he kept telling them over and over what he thought they were questioning him about ("hooking up" two acquaintances who were looking to buy/sell marijuana). It's also clear that everytime the police referred to a fight at "9th and Barnette", Eugene thought they were talking about the party at the motel.
The tapes and transcripts of the interrogations themselves raise a lot of questions because there are inexplicable gaps and times that the tape is turned off for no apparent reason "we're going to go off tape here" says the policeman in Eugene Vent's interrogation. When they go back "on tape" there is clearly a change in the conversation.
What the readers should realize about these series of articles is that they do represent true investigative reporting; something that wasn't done at the time of the crime when the newspaper was simply rewriting police and DA press releases. Quite a bit of the information presented in these articles came from investigators hired by defense attorneys or from the journalism students and teacher. Much of this information represents facts that should have been discovered by the police investigation at the time of the crime but there was no real police investigation; no interest in interviewing the friend of Chris Stone's mother who called the police telling them to look into his previous assault. This whole case, from investigation to prosecution, was a travesty.
"This seven-part series offers no proof of guilt or innocence. It does document gaps in the police investigation that raise questions about the victim’s last conscious hours. It points out that the group convicted of the teen’s murder may have been prosecuted with forms of evidence identified later in national studies as contributing to some wrongful prosecutions elsewhere. And it shows how rulings from this state’s courts have undermined Alaska Native confidence in the justice system by keeping juries from weighing all that’s known about the crime."
Way to go FDN. No bias here, huh? "Decade of Doubt"...are you kidding me?!
Thank God these four MURDERERS are STILL behind bars.
How much racial bias did any of the investigators have? Did any of them profess any anti native bias prior to the murder?
The clerk at the motel had a lot to do with the confusion.. Trying to act tuff and saying things that weren't true.. A typical would be.
SueD is correct about the discrepancies in the justice for Natives and non-natives.
Chris Stone and Arlo Olson were on the stand at a retrial hearing and admitted lying continuously to the cops. Everytime Aaron Ring or O'Bryant went to see them in jail, they would than change their story. They lied so much they forgot what they were lying about.
Why did Chris Stone lie about why Hartman had Stones pants on? Why did Stone lie about what happened when they left EJ's house and what direction they took. Why didn't he mention he ran into Foodland?? Described by a reliable witness like a "Scared Rabbit".
Lies and more lies.
It all boils down to hte two justice system in Alaska... The Colonial justice system has one for whites who can do no wrong and get lenient sentences or released. Another for Natives who are guilty and will get the maximum sentence allowed.
Take a look at the Della Brown Murder around Anchorage. her murderer was let loose and ended up killing a white woman for which he did get convicted for.
There's a few of you on here that shows your bias.. that since these guys are Natives.. Keep them locked up and throw away the key.. innocent or not.
The point of the story isn't that they are innocent. The point is that they weren't given a fair trial, which is a constitutional right in this great country of ours. And for everyone who criticizes the news-miner for printing this and saying "this isn't journalism"... Was the Watergate scandal "not real journalism?"
Digging up facts that expose a corrupted trial (or in Watergate's case, a corrupt president) isn't important? What if it was your loved one, who, guilty or not, was seventeen years old, blacked-out drunk, being interrogated by a cop who would refuse him any food to help him sober up so he could suggest names and places and events to lead to a confession? You'd be screaming then.
Did any of the cops go to the biker bar where Evelyn Thomas hung out?? Were any of the cops part of the drug distribution system in Fairbanks? I recall the stolen $10,000 from the cop shop that wasn't resolved. It's bad enough when the cops are acting like a bunch of keystone kops.. But part of the drug scene in Fairbanks.. It appears there's things that need to be brought out into the open.. And crooked cops is part of it.
I do thinks that it is important to keep Fairbanks aware of this case not only because a young man was killed but also because these young men in prison will want parole someday and we need to fight for what is right, whatever side you are on, to help make sure justice is served.
On the other hand this article is nothing more than a put together story or hearsay and history, Please when reading this remember this is a group of journalists portrayal of a heinous crime, not all face not all fiction but a little of both.
FDN someone should have used a little more discretion than to print this series in this matter, bad taste all the way.
These trials, the witnesses, the interrogations, the fact that there was no HARD EVIDENCE......it SCREAMS corrupt! I tell you what....for all those people saying this is not journalism, if it was MY CHILD in this situation God Bless ANYONE that would bring attention to this travesty!!! My prayers are with everyone involved.
This kind of reminds me of that song by Bob Dylan called (Hurricane) I believe. It tells the story of Rubin Carter who was falsely imprisoned for murder. Now I am not saying these four men are innocent but I know that there are corrupt people in all walks of life regardless if any of them are wearing uniforms or badges. I don't know if these men killed John Hartman or not but I do believe that the Lord will take care of everything in do time and he will reveal the truth.
For everyone of you that believe that these 4 men murdered John Hartman, PROVE IT!
"It does document gaps in the police investigation that raise questions about the victim’s last conscious hours. It points out that the group convicted of the teen’s murder may have been prosecuted with forms of evidence identified later in national studies as contributing to some wrongful prosecutions elsewhere. And it shows how rulings from this state’s courts have undermined Alaska Native confidence in the justice system by keeping juries from weighing all that’s known about the crime."
Sounds like these men were wrongfully convicted because all of the above provides REASONABLE DOUBT. For those of you who are confused what this means..."Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in the most important of your own affairs." ALSO, "This means that the proposition being presented by the government must be proven to the extent that there is no 'reasonable doubt' in the mind of a reasonable person that the defendant is guilty."
Paramedic 99708, please tell me that you are not a paramedic, PLEASE?? Are you sure you didn't commit this crime against John Hartman? Because if you didn't, I see alot of violence in your future on your part.
I am still keeping an open mind regardless of the convictions. I do not believe the FPD and the District Attorney. My opinion is that these young men are innocent because no one has proven guilt.
I remember this from along time ago and since day one I have believed the boys were innocent. I knew the boys, however never hung out with them, I know they were the typical boys who got into mischivious and were blamed for things they did not do. I have seen people get off charges for less and I firmly believe that any judge, jury or lawyer can see from all that is presented in this and in their files that this case deserves a second look into. I believe that the FPD was short staffed and in trying to solve the case Mr. Ring put the blame on these young men and made this crime fit these young men. He refused to look into any other avenue or even take time to look for other supsects but made the case revolve around the 4 they caught. I do hope that Mr Ring is no longer working on cases. I believe he should be put on a back burner and another detective take time to look at this case and should be boys be finally freed of a crime they did not commit then all other cases by Mr. Ring should be investigated.
I hope the police department is feeling the pressure to improve. Especially when the car of non-Natives have been attacking lone Natives lately.
People who do not want to see this story published because they think it "opens old wounds" are missing the point. No matter how old these wounds are they will never be healed as long as innocent men remain in prison for a crime they did not commit. I take issue with those who say that there is no new information being presented in this publication; there is a wealth of information being provided to the public for the first time; transcripts, witness statements; interviews that have never before been published. Anyone who takes the time to read through this information and really study it will understand why the Native community has issued resolutions year after year calling for justice in this case.
This should not be dismissed as a Native vs. Non-Native issue; every thinking citizen of Alaska should be outraged at what happened in this case. It was and is an egregious abuse of power by the legal system and it effects all of us. Imagine what you would do if you were accused of a crime you did not commit. How would you prove your innocence? Under the common law of our justice system we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but in fact this is not how the system works in Fairbanks and this case is a prime example of that. The district attorney treats justice as though it is a game. It doesn't matter whether the individuals are innocent or guilty; what matters is whether the the DA wins or loses. This was made evident in the way he presented "misinformation" to the initial Grand Jury. New evidence? The State of Alaska doesn't want to hear it. Doesn't matter if there is new evidence; the game has been played and the State "won".
The only people who should be upset about these article are the police who mishandled the case and the person or persons who really killed John Hartman. Oh yes, and Christopher Stone who has to know what actually happened that night.
dont talk to me about "boys" and "these young men". they are monsters and they are only still with us, because we dont have the death penalty in alaska. to bad about that!!!
Wasn't there an inquisition today in Anchorage regarding this case?
"What if it was your loved one, who, guilty or not, was seventeen years old, blacked-out drunk, being interrogated by a cop who would refuse him any food to help him sober up so he could suggest names and places and events to lead to a confession? You'd be screaming then."
You are right...I would be screaming then....at my seventeen year old for being DRUNK!!! All in the community and family knew these kids were out getting high, etc...but no one cared then did they?
Where were the families, community leaders, people at the dance and all the rest who saw these kids, time and again under the influence, yet did nothing about it??? Where was all your outrage, care and compassion then?
In statements people mentioned seeing the kids drunk...even family members said they saw them stumbling by, etc...why didn't any step in then - - - prior to this tragedy occurring?
Easier to blame the police, etc then to take a hard look in the mirror I guess
Ask Aaron Rings classmates in high school what he thought of Alaska Natives!
What was the name of the mother who was snorting in the bathroom during the murder trial?
"The notion a person would falsely confess to crimes as serious as murder defies common sense, observed Rob Warden, a law professor and director of Northwestern University’s Center for Wrongful Convictions. “Absent physical torture or threats, most of us can’t imagine confessing to a crime we did not commit,” he commented via e-mail. “But psychological techniques employed during police interrogations, while not as effective as torture, are nonetheless quite effective.”
This is the same reason that torturing people, like the U.S. has done at Gitmo, leads to useless information. This is also why the death penalty should be banned. Our legal system is flawed, and innocent people pay with their lives.
Fact of the mater is ONLY 2 of the 4 recanted their confessions, what now because you don't admit to a crime you didn't do it?
One thing this STORY hasn't touched is how this is all a product of bad parenting. As the story goes there is a history of drugs and violence with in each family of both the victim and the aslants. This would never have happened if young boys including the victim and his friends had not been out late at night doing drugs and drinking alcohol. Our Children need to have boundaries and discipline and be led by example. As the saying goes (no this is not a native jab) it takes a village to raise a child, well this village has failed these children and no one is taking responsibility for that.
As for the reporting in any news report there are some biases that show through. It’s the difference of hearing it on FOX news VS. CNN.
the right "people" are in jail for this crime...they confessed...yawn...
SUeD_ I have read the confessions and during the first interrogation that was thrown out and not used in the trial, the names of the others already arrested or being questioned where named by he officer, BUT in the following two interviews that happened hours apart, after rest and food he named the same people again. Point being that he named them before talking to the rest of the people involved or an attorney and having the ability to work on the story. Sorry, I did read the transcripts and I watched this closely the whole trial. No one put all four kids together but Vent and then seperately, Frese. They confessed and now think they have some way to get out of jail for a crime that they regret. I have to quit with this, so I wont say what I feel to be the truth past this point. I mean no disrespect to the families involved, on all sides. May peace and forgiveness be found but always remember that life has a way of balancing out mercy and justice.
These young men did not confess. The FPD does not have a definition of confession. Those two that even said anything about violence were drunk and were being lead to say what the cops wanted them to say. Just like Arlo Olson. The police couldn't even prove that those 4 men were even together that night.
Let's test FPD's definition of confession. I think that the mishandling of this case is why I am so upset.
Akguy, there were a number of Alaska Natives that spoke up as to the whereabouts of these young men. FPD got the names of these young men because of a yearbook shown to Eugene while he was intoxicated. Had the others not played basketball at Howard Luke Academy, they would not have been implicated.
fairbanksreader, The Fairbanks Police Department and the District Attorneys office has blatantly disregarded all of these young men's "village". Comparing Alaska Natives to Spartacus. I did not know these young men, but I would have stood up for them supporting what I could. I would not provide a false alibi as that seems to be what FPD is believing happened with those reputable witnesses.
tncinc, I am gonna pray for you today. I'm sure those young men think the same about FPD and the district attorney.
It really is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when these boys get out, I hope the community of Fairbanks gives them a chance. Not because they paid a debt to society, but because society did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they had a debt to pay.
InupiaqDiva- When I say that the "village has failed these men" I do not mean after the crime. It’s not the government’s job to raise a child or to teach parents, this is where the "village" or community comes in, and that is where I place the blame. The entire article is full of drugs, crime, underage drinking and other things that NO ONE should be a part of. All the young men, including the John Hartman were brought up in this environment. That has nothing to do with FPD.
It's sad that a lot of people in this forum don't seem to want to address the root of this whole tragedy: substance abuse. I am thoroughly ashamed of all the parents and adults who knew what ALL of these kids were up to that night and just didn't care (for whatever reason) or worse, saw it, and did NOTHING to prevent it. If only someone had at least said no to underage drinking at the wedding reception...
It's a telling picture of Alaska's cycle of substance abuse from parents to children and the horror that comes of it.
Wasn't there a trial request for a re trial in Anchorage on Tuesday?
What happened? Any news?
Dove: You are right...there was a hearing in Anchorage on Tuesday. Here's a link to the story about the latest efforts by Eugene Vent to overturn his conviction.
http://www.newsminer.com/news/2008/jul/0...
Following Tuesday’s hearing, Esch indicated he’ll address Vent’s current arguments without testing that deadline. “I have no interest in dragging this out.” per DNM update (thank you Robinson Duffy)
This said, and all of the comments posted here on this DNM article DEMAND another look at these boy's testimony, forced confession, and lack of DNA, forensic evidense.
We owe these men,, Alaska residents and fellow citizens the opportunity to re-examine the FACTS.
Furthermore, I was myself wrongly accused and jailed because someone lied to FPD. I have since WON every court appearance, defending myself against falsified testimony.
If any of you believe in justice, than you need to stand up for the truth, honesty, and our Alaska judicial system potential errors barring any racial, supposed allegations.
Does anyone know if that Chris Stone guy is still alive? I remember reading somewhere that he died.