Community Perspective
Fairbanks must switch to natural gas
We’re hooked up to the wrong fuel
Published Sunday, September 28, 2008
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Stumble It!Good is not always the enemy of excellent. Slightly more than a month ago, the Alaska State Legislature passed the resource rebate of $1,200 and now Permanent Fund Dividend recipients are receiving checks worth more than $3,200. For Fairbanksans receiving these checks, this is definitely good — even if the interim solution is less than excellent.
So what is an excellent solution? An excellent solution is one that would do four things: 1) bring down the price of gasoline, 2) bring down the cost of home heating oil, 3) bring down the cost of electricity, and 4) bring down the cost of heating our homes and businesses by having access to a small diameter natural gas bullet line.
During Sunday brunch a few months ago, I learned from my friend Mike Dalton about a battle royale her husband was involved in back in the 1960s regarding the heat source for then Ladd Field, now Fort Wainwright. The post was dealing with transitioning from coal to either diesel (home heating oil) or natural gas from the Gubik Field, which lays just 60 miles south of the North Slope. The debate about building a natural gas pipeline lost out to the economic cornerstone of committing to diesel as the fuel of the future for Ladd Field/Fort Wainwright and for Fairbanks.
And now, like Paul Harvey would say, you know the rest of the story: This is how Fairbanks transitioned from coal to diesel, instead of like Anchorage, transitioning to natural gas.
So here we are, 40 years later, and there is no natural gas pipeline from Gubik to Fairbanks. In fact, Anadarko Petroleum is drilling test wells today and analyzing information at the same site. Enstar, the natural gas pipeline company from Anchorage, is studying its ability to bring a pipeline down from Gubik through Fairbanks to the Cook Inlet. We will know if this source of gas is substantial enough to amortize a $4 billion pipeline by June 2009. We could be completing our engineering in 2010, working on our environmental impact statement in 2011, ordering pipe and laying it in 2012 and 2013, and we could have gas flowing to our homes in 2014.
If you live in Fairbanks proper, you can convert your existing boiler to gas. If you have a GVEA meter, you could see the portion of your kilowatt portfolio that is on diesel be converted to natural gas and see your electricity cost decline by 30 percent (while we wait to see if there is the political will among politicians, environmentalists and the public to build the Susitna hydroelectric dam) and we can see Flint Hills (or whoever becomes the owner of our distressed North Pole refinery) begin to refine its gasoline fuel stock with natural gas rather than refining crude with crude, which is far more costly.
We learned in a recent investigation why the price of retail gasoline is so high. Flint Hills refines gasoline with crude oil. Both Flint Hills and Petro Star make their home heating oil using crude oil. If you want to dramatically reduce the “rack cost” of gasoline and home heating oil, change the feedstock from crude to natural gas. Natural gas as feedstock is half the cost of crude oil.
Around statehood and in the years that followed, Fairbanks was a coal economy. And clean coal may have its place in Alaska in the 21st century, but for the present we must exploit the massive amounts of natural gas that are only a few hundred miles away. We cannot efficiently bring that natural gas here on trucks, so we must build a small-diameter pipeline to deliver gas to Fairbanks and send it on its way to Southcentral Alaska.
Alaska should see to its own energy needs first. It is nearly criminal to put the Interior on an “island without affordable energy,” and that is where we live now.
It is time for Fairbanks to marshal its will, voice and its political power to tell the state that we need a natural gas pipeline to change our source of energy. We need to lay down a path of affordable, cost-predictable, clean and abundant energy for the next 100 years.
Has it occurred to us in Fairbanks that when the price of oil goes up in the world it’s good for Anchorage — more money, more surplus, more services and capital projects for Southcentral? Contrast this with more misery and more economic hardship if you live in the Interior. This is the paradigm between a natural gas economy and an oil-based economy. We must change Fairbanks’ fuelstock. It’s a non-negotiable need.
Jay Ramras is a local business owner and lifelong Fairbanksan who represents District 10, which covers most of eastern Fairbanks and Fort Wainwright, in the Alaska House of Representatives.
Community Discussion
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You got your facts wrong, Jay. The News-Miner ran a special edition on the gasline from Gubik in 1958. Half a century ago, not 40 years as you write. (Which illustrates what a dismal failure this, and past legislatures have been at resolving this issue).
Why are you shilling for Enstar, Jay, and ignoring the voters wishes? The voters in your district voted statewide, and locally, to build the All Alaska Gasline. If you, and your peers, had worked to follow the 1999 lead/mandate of Alaskans, we would have affordable gas and cleaner air in Fairbanks today through a real gasline.
And Enstar's deal- what a nightmare proposal that is. An out of state corporation is going to give us cheap gas? Just like Flint Hills gives us cheap fuel oil and gasoline?
Come on.
Pipeline economics 101 tells us that a high capacity gasline provides the cheapest gas. A low volume, high cost line like Enstar is playing with provides the MOST expensive gas. That is an established fact.
Listen to your voters Jay. They told you what they wanted to do and you ignored them.
And this brings us to the last point. Your entire campaign slogan is dishonest. "First gas in 5 years". As long as that gasline is NOT what the voters have mandated, eh Jay? You, with a straight face, tell us that you want gas right away as long as it is not through the line mandated by the voters.
Please.
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Here are some articles:
http://newsminer.com/news/2008/mar/16/na...
http://www.enstarnaturalgas.com/Articles...
http://www.adn.com/money/story/367244.ht...
http://www.alaskajournal.com/stories/071...
http://www.petroleumnews.com/pntruncate/...
Rep. Jay Ramras is pushing a political decision worth 10s of millions to the local gas company which will be paid by it's customer as part of their gas bill.
What is the best, simplest, fastest solution and the lowest cost?
There is only one!
Build a HVDC power line to the slope and install off the shelf generators.
The high voltage direct current lines are being installed world wide because they only require 1 insulated wire, narrow right - of- ways and cost about half as much. AC lines, like you see along the highway to Anchorage will work but are more expensive.
When completed the line would ALSO supply Anchorage with low cost electricity from the slope.
How long would it take? Small 5, 10, 20 mega watt "plug and play" /"turn key" generators are made by several mfg. They are readilly available and can be halued by flat bed tuck to the gas well head site.
HVDC equipment is also available from several mfg.
Answer: probably 12 months or less because you are using standard off the shelf parts.
As for construction -- you start building the power line in each direction from several locations while you are installing the generators.
When finished or even partly finished you flip the switch we have low cost electricity in our homes instantly!
If the project is paid for in cash from the 10 billion sitting in uncle Juneau's bank -- you will have very low cost electricity generated at the well head from royalty natural gas that you own.
The electric power will be delivered TO YOUR nearest wall socket in Fairbanks and Anchorage.
For more information:
type in Goolge search "HVDC China"
"high power portable generator sets"
"gas electric generator"
The power line is all fine, but the biggie is environmentalists. They are always standing in line to shoot something like this down. I think an idea like this was shot down several years ago.
You can build the power line in the highway right of way.
The environmentalist case has taken a severe beating with oil drilling.
They are hot on smoke in the Fairbanks air.. solve the problem: covert to electricity.
I have the opinion we could export the energy value of gas from the North slope outside to every wall socket, in the USA, as electricity. If we did, the sale value is probably twice the sale value of the energy in the form of gas because you have far, far more customers with wall sockets than gas meters. Also, the the distribution system in installed.
This whole (*&^% town has gas and pipe dreams on the brain. A local version of St. Vitus dance induced by the hallucinogen known is fast-money-money-in-my-pocket. Syn: greed.
PS reality check for environmentalists:
NO one, and I do mean NO one is going to freeze in the dark nor starve for any environmental cause.
OPEC running up the price of oil to cut consumption in order save the planet from the latest global warm spel backfired causing a massive public flip on off shore drilling.
All Gas Must Pass...
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
almost 20,000 pageviews so far....(;-P)
people keep looking at it every day
While I like 1AkFox's willingness to seek solutions by thinking outside the BOX, I think the idea is HOT!!..
..too hot---- :-(
I'm not too excited about importing a bunch of Nat-Gas generators from China and rushing to install them on the n-slope.
http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?Type...
Yeah, I already have an export/import license for China.
..and I can probably secure the best prices for importing this type of equipment to n-slope.
Putting more industry in the N-Slope is not a good idea unless it guarantees it doesn't add more heat to the Arctic Basin.
If you fly over Prudhoe wearing infrared goggles you'll see what I mean.
We need to address how to minimize the existing thermal-pollution before we consider adding more heat.
1000tcf of methane in hydrates is vulnerable to the current heat flux, and the situation is getting worse.
This is the underlying cause of the big 2007 tundra fire.
GOOD ARCHITECTURE IS VERY IMPORTANT
If UIC called me up and asked me to help get them a containerload of little generators I wouldn't say no, but I'd try to help design the applications to minimize waste heat much like the co-gen project in Tanana.
I've already spent more than a few hours thinking about where to place NatGas-powerplants to generate HVDC.
Ok, I'll trade ya 2-HVDC's for 2-HDPE's
Here's one off the top of my noodle..
howzabout running a HDPE gasline from Gubik to Anaktuvuk Pass, then somewhere south of A-Pass on the way to Crevice Creek we can build a HDPE-NatGas-HVDC-powerplant then run powerlines south from there.
AAC-concrete makes a very good fireproof insulating material for powerplant enclosures.
Or, we can pop-in a quickie CNG-gasline to Sukakpak Mt. like the one seen in the DistantThunderbolt slideshow.
The raw field gas shipped in this line can be separated and processed at Sukakpak. 6% of Prudhoe gas is propane, this LPG can be trucked to Fairbanks and the villages. A HVDC-powerline from Sukakpak will find many local customers in Wiseman/Coldfoot.
GTL is getting to be modularized and affordable too..
http://www.synfuels.com/
......flash/rumble
I am interested in the quickest solution and lowest cost.
A bullet line is nice.
However, 2/3 of the population does NOT live in Fairbanks (densely packed urban area). The cost of any distribution system outside of Fairbanks is prohibitive -- because material costs plus interest on the loan must be added in the cost of gas delivered to the current Fairbanks customers AND to the newest customer.
The electric power distribution system is in place; no digging up the roads, making connections, etc.
and it is paid for.
Flip the switch and you have heat.
Two side effects of electric heat: (1) NO ice fog from houses, (2) No fires/explosions from leaks.
Reason: When oil, gas, wood etc are burned almost all of it is converted to water vapor which in cold weather covers the town with ice fog.
If we continue to expand the population there will come a time when the visibility approaches a few feet because of ice fog. People will then be forced to stay home --- since they can't see their way! Try finding your way around blind folded.
How in the heck can someone living out on Chena Hot Springs convert to Natural Gas. Are you going to pay for the pipe and the new furnace. No. Plus I lived in lower 48 where natural gas was used and they quit allowing that because it was dangerous. Many houses blew up because of the leaks from the pipes. Yard lights are even banned from Kansas City because of it.
And we wouldn't have as much ice fog if the weenies would turn their cars off when they go inside the store. If their cars don't start after that short of time they need to take it and get it repaired or replaced.
DistantThunder..
6% propane ... glad to hear this fact ... it can be distributed state wide... cars/trucks can be converted to propane with conversion kits.
Also, re gen sets. There are small home sized fuel cells that convert gas to electricity. About 50/50 elec and heat waste product is water. Excess electricity could be feed into the electric grid to help reduce power failures
They do make large fuel cell units mounted on truck trailers; some are plug and play units; some have no moving parts and are alleged to run 20 years maintenance free.
Idling cars don't count for zip.
Drive up to the over look on the hill North of town.
About noon time in mid December when it is -50 and when there is slight north wind blowing the ice fog towards the flats.
You will be able to see where the ice comes from.
Look for laundry mats
Quickest solution and lowest cost?
Buy, borrow, or steal a LPG-bobtail truck.
http://www.teecoproducts.com/bobtail1.ht...
Get a truck that is powered by a Cummins-NatGas engine [these are common]
You can fill this truck summer or winter at Prudhoe.
Different temperatures affect the characteristics of the load.
Methane is liquid at -276F
ethane === -127F
propane === -44F
butane === -5F
Prudhoe gas is 12-14% NGL's or condensates
don't accept more than 7% CO2, if more then yer getting hozed.
Taking on your first load of raw Prudhoe-gas will leave you with 85% methane gas and 15% liquids propane/ethane at 150psi rating for the truck tank.
Fill-up and drive. Depending on the particular truck, you'll be driving on methane until the pressure drops to a lower plateau showing that the ethane is beginning to boil.
Depending on your ambient temperature you can calculate to store the ethane/propane or hurry and burn the blow-off ethane in a nat-gas generator. If it's colder than -25F you don't need to worry about the ethane in the truck. The propane will keep all summer.
You can choose to just go fishing and quickly return after just the methane-gas has been used in your bobtail, then the 2nd load will add more gas&liquids.. fish & repeat, until 50/50
A standard single-axle bobtail is 2100 to 3500gallons.
Don't pay more than HenryHub, as an Alaskan resident you deserve the condensates for free as royalty. You can sweeten the deal by giving the boys at Prudeho some goodies like homebaked cookies.
find yourself a good vapor/pressure-chart
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&...
First law of debate:
If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance;
confound them with your logic;
at least you can drown 'um in B.. S...!
Jay: You mention the Susitna Dam but have you considered it. Alaska invested $150 million in the dam in the 1980's. We have done the studies. We even had an application before the FERC for the construction. Then Gov Bill Shefield killed it because oil dropped from $28 to $14 per barrel. Now oil is over $100 per barrel.
The dams can supply enough energy to heat and light all of Alaska for pennies per kilowatt-hour, forever.
Burning gas produces carbon-dioxide, and ice-fog. Electricity does not.
Fairbanks does not have he infrastructure for gas. Fairbanks does have the infrastructure for electricity. I live three miles from the city limits and I can't even get cable TV. When do you suppose I'll get gas ?
The "electricity pipeline", the rail-belt intertie, is built and running well below it's design capacity. It runs within a few miles of the proposed Susitna Dam.
Ok let's build the gas-line and sell the gas to the highest bidder. Once we are connected to the lower 48 and world markets we'll be subjected to the rise in world gas prices. Just like the rise in oil prices.
With hydro-electricity we will have stable prices. Even Iran has built three large hydro projects recently to provide energy locally. They realize that their fossil fuels are too valuable to burn locally.
In the short term we need to get Healy Clean Coal running to displace the oil we are burning in North Pole. We have spent $295 million on it and get nothing to show for it.
Let's finish these two worthy projects, the Susitna Dam and Healy Clean Coal, before we start another "pipe dream".
What if we build a small diameter delivery system (bullet line) from the slope to a natural gas powered electricity generating station around the finger mountain area or even further south to the Yukon River and then ran the DC line down the haul road to Fairbanks? That keeps the heat generating stuff off the arctic coast and away from populated areas. Shipping energy as electricity makes more sense than trying to put in a natural gas distribution system throughout the borough. Let us turn all of our boilers completely off and clean up the air in the Tanana Valley.
Representative Ramras,
Just for the record, I don't give a rat's behind about shipping gas to Anchorage. They have enough gas for the next few years and they should be developing the cook inlet field as advertised two years ago. Putting a small diameter line through Fairbanks and continuing on to Anchorage with 2bcf/day flow won't provide enough energy to replace our current or future energy needs. It may be economical for the GVEA plant and Flint hills to convert, but the infrastructure for a home distribution system is years out. As a GVEA owner member, I would expect my association to kick in on the investment to construct such a line, which in turn will be passed back to me in the form of a service fee. I just love those service fees.
A spur line off the Trans Canada line can fuel Alaska for the next hundred years provided we all spend about ten thousand dollars per home to connect and convert. What we need is long term clean energy in the Borough. The HCCP is still not online (it could be if we make it a priorty to get more electricity to the Borough). Don't try and sell us another marathon project when you haven't got the will to cross the finish line. If you really want to do something that will help with the cost of fuel, then put forth some legislation to pave every road in Alaska starting with the Dalton Highway. The savings in time and transportation costs alone will net more profit for the oil and gas industry (read ALASKA) and increase exploration, by decreasing expenses and delays in shipping; probably enough to pay for that bullet line.
Juneau spends more on cleaning up fuel oil spills in villages yearly than it takes to buy a LPG-tanker to move propane to Kotzebue to Kodiak.
Right now there's several foreign bottom LPG-tankers in very good condition for sale cheap... just get uncle Ted to sign a JonesAct waiver.
Witness the functions of government today, they operate as if laws are to be ignored if there's money to be made.
Ted needs some traction this week,eh?
It would be a long time coming for me to see Nat Gas to my home -
The electricity proposal and a dam would be great - - the lines are already run to most people's homes and like the man said - it's a light switch away
It just needs to be affordable - - Heck - there used to be a small nuke plant at Greeley - - why not build a new one in Healey? Nuclear is safe and clean!!! Include the dam and we are good for many many years to come!
The State has the cash - just dread to think how they would run the enterprise....bloated and at a deficit I am sure
Question.
I understand there is an LNG plant on the slope.
Is this true?
What about hauling LNG from the slope to FBX to run the city gas system and GVEA's power plant?
This article fails to mention that the switch to natural gas would eliminate the particulate problem that the EPA is cracking down on.
akguy
Re large hydro. It would reduce the cost of electricity and the price would be stable till the population increase creates a shortage and the price goes up.
The construction would take many (15?) years. It looks like hydro projects take one of a kind custom generators. These take time to design and build. 3 Gorges Dam is an example.
Geothermal is a mature technology, can be quickly installed and available. Chena Hot Springs is a good example. Standard oil well drilling equipment and common parts are available.
Wind is now a mature technology and can be installed quickly.
Hauling LNG from the slope might be possible to run GVEA.
As for quick power, a power line to the slope and well head generators is still the fastest and benefits any one hooked to the power grid --- Anchorage/Fairbanks with a flip of a switch using the existing power lines.. ie no money wasted for trenching, pipe and digging up the roads.
The gas infrastructure's cash cost plus debt interest is passed on to ALL gas customers.
Uhhhh, "kilowatt portfolio", Mr Ramras?
Is that what we commoners would refer to as a utility bill or am I missing something here?
Does anyone who has natural gas from FNG know if they got a supplier for January -March yet? Would be a bad day if they run out. Hopefully my lawyers office has heat...
He doesn't mention that 2 years ago Natural Gas was double what it is priced today. It will be that again soon and probably even higher.
Besides that, if people are struggling to pay for heating oil right now how does he think the people are going to come up with X amount of dollars to switch their current set up over?
I also do not recall seeing anything on his "so called" investigation. Did I miss that article?
My thoughts exactly, sherry29. How do those of us who run on tight budgets find the money to switch our furnaces over? How much is it going to cost GVEA and Flint Hills to switch over.
I have nothing against natural gas coming in if it can be made efficient for everyone, including those outside of the city limits. But the reality is just getting the gas here is only a portion of the problem. Our politicians never address the monetary costs of switching to gas.
I am not asking the Government to hand us the money for the switch over. Just please stop talking about it as though this is the Holy Grail and Miracle Tonic of our present energy crisis. This is far more complicated than that.
Plastic HDPE gaslines can be built now for very little capital investment.
We can buy 4"HDPE-gasline off the shelf for @ $3.50/ft.
The 2 shortest source to market gas-runs are the already proposed Delta-FBX 24"spur, and a potential CNG/LPG run from Nenana Flats gasfield when Doyon gets a kick in the pants on their exploration there.
I know there's some small CBM shallow gas in spots along the ParksHWY becuz I found some in 1967 using a primitive slackline pipe-slammer made from a spinning junk-car rim.
There's a gasfield near Glenallen too.
Since the gas-runs across the slope over the Brooks require purchases of at least 80miles of poly-pipe the project pencils out buying our own pipe-extrusion machine. If we buy worldmarket poly-pellets to feed the pipe-extruder we can make 4"pipe for $2.50/ft. The equipment will pay for itself on the first job.
It's 820,000feet from Prudhoe to DietrichCreek on the HaulRoad.
If we tighten our belts, the 4"Atigun gasline seen in the slideshow will cost less than $30mil, less than $20mil if I kill myself building it myself... then you can call it the DT Memorial Gasline.
The FastFusion folks have demonstrated in their "poly-pipe test races" that 35,000 feet per day of gasline can be fused with one small team of girl basketball players.
Plastic-gaslines can be a competitive sport in Alaska.
Daily progress reports can be posted in the DNM..
..the winners get free homestead gas for a year.
[I'd donate mine to the schools/old folks]
Poly-pipe is fun to squirt thru miles of woods during winter.
Low pressure 20psi gas can be charged in the line as work progresses, so there's ready gas to fuel/heat the camp 5-10miles upstream from the FastFusion machine.
2000'long sections can be noodled through the frozen snowy woods towed by a small hotrod-dozer.
River crossings can be EZ, bigger rivers can be spanned by hanging the pipe on a cable, or just diagonal drops on the bottom works too.
The gasline can be quickly converted to a waterline for firefighting by joining it to waterpumps at rivers. A firehose can be saddletapped into the polypipe anywhere in 60seconds.
The $25k mini-pumpstations every 10-20mi can be flown in by helicopter.
Rugged mountains can be helicopter dropped with bulletproof-RTP-gasline.
Temporary surface-drop gaslines can be shut-down during fire-season.
SCADA-fiberoptic gives broadband connectivity too.
Re the alleged Nenana gas
What seems to be the problem getting to market?
Well head generators located about the gas field could feed power to the Fairbanks / Anchorage power grid.
I am tired of pipe dreams, yak, yak, and more yak, yak!
I want to see results!
Fairbanksans can organize to immediately add propane to the heat/power portfolio.
This winter a limited but much needed propane supply can be trucked from Prudhoe.
In downtown Fairbanks propane can be delivered by bobtail-truck to each city-block. On each block a 1000gallon LPG-tank can be located [buried nextyear]inside a fireproof concrete-panel fence enclosure.
[this is overkill safety exceeding national standards]
All houses on the block can be separately metered and supplied with copper/poly tube for an average cost of $350[maybe cheaper].
Or, it's standard practice to use portable bottles too.
There's many-many-many different propane heating devices for sale on the web.
Instant hot-water heaters
catalytic heaters [a $40 catalytic heater and a $40 cooktop is all I need to survive a winter in Alaska]
ceramic infrared
propane clothes dryers
propane lights
propane watercooled electric generators
N-slope propane is plentiful enough to make life in Alaska somewhat civilized for 200years if it's not squandered.
Propane won't totally solve everyones energy needs..
..some people can't seem to function without keeping their electric underwear plugged into an extension cord, but a small portable propane electric generator can be bought for less than $350.
I'm typing this message on a laptop that's powered by a biodiesel generator which burns 1pint of fuel per day.. this gives me all the light, and power I need. I built this quiet little thumper genset myself.
I have an old junker propane-powered little Nissan pickuptruck that I'm scrapping, gonna keep the fueltank and fuelsystem.
Vehicles can be converted to dualfuel gasoline-propane cheaper than you think.
If you propane boost your diesel truck you'll find a big savings and powerboost, less particulates too.
What is cost of propane per million BTUs
Re the alleged Nenana gas....
call up Doyon and ask them, they have most of the gasbearing area claimed, but not all of it. Last I heard they had Anadarko spudding a well or two, but the drillrig broke, and people started arguing about something.
I'm sure there's at least 3dozen people in town who know what's the skinny on this.
There's some talk about finding "wet-gas", this means there's propane in the gas.
In America greed slows things down, not speeds things up.
the cost of anything this week is up for debate..
congress is doing a hilarious fillibuster being duly suspicious about throwing a TARP of the WallStreet debacle.
We might be looking at 1000% inflation, WHEE!
We could open a Gold4Gas distributorship.
..I know where there's plenty of gold, no worries.
Call up your local propane dealer, there's several in FBX.
it's shipped up from Kenai
If I was DOG I'd declare propane to cost $2/gallon for Alaskans, but I'd also come up with a fun to argue about propane rationing system..
..this would encourage conservation, minimize waste.
OH what the hell lets all go on energy strike shut off all power and start running our houses off static electricity and heat them all off of the hot air being produced in Juneau would be much easier to pipe in if the capital was closer but none the less there is your alternative
give me a break jay might be leaning a bit to the right on his suggestion but that is not a reason to not do nothing! Let’s get some affordable power SOONER THAN LATER!
DT, vaporizors for propane would probably be a must up here in many cases.
DT,
A friend of mine worked test drilling for gas in the Copper River Basin.
What was found nearly consistently was usable geothermal emanating from Mts Drum and Sanford, both dormant (to date) volcanoes.
That's where the action is in the Valley.
Transportation costs to truck the gas from prudoe bay would probit it! How about trucking it from punp 4? There is a gas line running to pump 4 it is our gas lets do it!
hi huffy..
Delirium Tremens here..
just crawled out from underneath my whiskey bottle again..
still got the blurry-shakes..
[actually it was blueberry pie al-a-mode with 4shots of espresso]
Last year there used to be a few bargains for good used LPG-bobtails posted on the net. $25k might get one landed in FBX. Gotta have one that runs on dual-fuel or nat-gas. If you can get it to run on methane/ethane then you can cut fuel costs to nuthin'.
http://www.truckpaper.com/listings/forsa...
Does anybody reading this know somebody who works at pump-4 Galbraith right now? What's the gas composition delivered to the 10"/8" fuelgasline these days? It's 30miles 158,400feet from pump4 to Dietrich Creek off the hump from Chandalar Shelf.
$2mil would build a 30mi 8" hdpe-pipe extension.
A small nat-gas powerplant can be set up at Chandalar to burn off the methane for HVDC-electricity to recharge every battery down the haul-rd until the only thing you can light up is a LED-flashlight at the far end.
The condensates can be trucked to FBX.
Then I'll be looking for a tiny poly-pellet plant.
======
C_R_R......
poly-pipe is commonly used for low-temp geothermal.
Propane can be used safely as a refrigerant if the compressor is a supercavitating impeller running in Syltherm444.
This gizmo can be built with a hacksaw, 4"disc-grinder, drill-press, a small lathe, and gas-torch.
DistantThunder I do not care if someone was giving lpg bobtails away! It still costs a fair amount of money to pay a driver with a TX cdl to drive the truck,maintain the truck,pay insurance,D.O.T. hazmat registration and bonding for hazmat and fuel.Besides it is not ecinomically possible to haul such small amounts that far,mark up would be terrible nobody could afford it! Trust me, check the facts.Anybody in the trucking business could tell anyone this.
Oh yea two more things,Iwish i lived in Ramras' district so i could vote against him,and #2 he just wants cheaper gas for his businesses he does not give a flying F**K about anybody but himself!
Ok, fine huffy, go cut, haul, split, stack 10cords of firewood...
maybe by cord #9 you'll revisit the thought of LPG-bobtails.
Both projects take about a week of time if you have a choice.
Laying up a small mountain of wood at your shack, or driving the haulroad.
I see your point. FBX is a stretch from Atigun. But if you live on the north side of the Yukon it's more workable.
There's some nice prospecting up there.
The idea of trucking all the gas FBX needs down the haulroad is just an emergency plan, not a business plan.
Wait until February to think about this.
Eventually we'll get plenty of gaslines crisscrossing the state everywhere...
or there will be just one big slurpy-pipe, and everybody will be half-froze and half-broke for 1000years.
...or you can winter in Costa Rica.
If it hasn't already been said, I'll say it here:
DistantThunder for Borough Mayor!
You can even keep the moniker, and wear a mask like one of those Mexican wrestlers.
You might not get a gasline built as the borough Mayor, but it will be fun to watch the legislators dodge all of your facts.
chuckle..........
How did you know I'm actually a Mexican wrestler??
As Borough Mayor I'd have to put on more clothes..
I'd make a rather handsome and mysterious ZORRO !!!
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&am...
Are ya old enough to remember ZORRO ???
[he was kinda like a mexican Batman who carried a whip and a rapier]
I could do that in the summertime, but in the winter I'd rather wear a set of skins.
"We learned in a recent investigation why the price of retail gasoline is so high. Flint Hills refines gasoline with crude oil." I think every refinery uses crude oil to make gasoline, not just Flint Hills. It took an investigation to learn that? I just spoke to a friend in Omaha, and he tells me he paid $3.169 a gallon today. I paid $4.069 in Fairbanks. There is no valid reason for that difference. NONE!
I wonder, what will it cost me to replace my new $10,000 energy efficient fuel oil boiler with a natural gas furnace? How many years will it take me to recoup the cost? I don't want natural gas, I just want the cost of oil to come back to reality. We need to get out of Iraq so the world stops hating us, and drill more domestically.
I heard Donald Trump say yesterday that the bailout will actually cause the price of oil to rise. He recommends letting the markets take their licks. The declining stock market and tightening of the credit markets will drive energy costs down as well. On Monday, when the market lost 777 points, oil dropped over $10 a barrel. I think the Donald is on to something. Too bad the Senate chose not to listen.
Yeah, when we get gas we probably will be paying a premium price for it too. Just like our gasoline prices right now. Only Anchorage would get if for cheaper, as usual.
http://www.synfuels.com/
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http://www.globalresourcecorp.com/Engine...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPe2rXTte...
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http://www.polypipeinc.com/oilgas.asp
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa3M4ou3k...
Methane to diesel
Methane to gasoline
Methane to methanol
When you marry up microwaves with catalysts you can build gas-to-liquids GTL-plants in a much smaller and portable size. It's now possible to build complete operational GTL-plants that fit in a 2truckload duplex module.
A $2.5mil mini-modular GTL-plant can make 10,000gallons of gasoline/diesel per day for $1.75gal. Sell it for $2.00gal
The cost of the mini-modular GTL-plant will amortize in 2.5years
The cost of the 100mile CNG poly-pipe gaslines will amortize in 2.5years.
Total project amortization 5years.
Put 10 mini-modular GTL-plants in the south side of the Brooks Range.
Distribute them from Noatak to Arctic Village. Feed the gas to these GTL-plants with 24" CNG poly-pipe from the foothills gasfields on the north side of the Brooks Range.
Put the first mini-GTL on a 250'boat.
Where do you find the catalysts?
it's in the blacksands in yer goldpan when doin' cleanup in your sluicebox.
Where do I look for it under the rainbow??
http://www.photon-control.com/spectrosco...
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http://www.jobinyvon.com/X-Ray-Fluoresce...
........flash/rumble
How much pipe could we buy with the money they are going to piss away on turning coal into fuel?
How much pipe could we buy????????
Poly-pipe????
If we used Prudhoe ethane and fed it to a small ship offshore that had an ethylene-pellet plant built onboard...
http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&am...
....then we can manufacture our own 4"hdpe-gasline for less than $2/foot.
Installing a tiny 4" LPG-gasline from Prudhoe to FBX will cost much less than anybody is willing to believe, because of decades of mental conditioning.
DistantThunder I DO CUT FIREWOOD YEARLY and it is good exersize. I cut 10-12 cords a year so don't tell me how much work it is! And by the way i do truck up the dalton year round in my truck so do not try to muddy the water with facts.You do have some good ideas but don't try to be an expert on the trucking business if you have no clue about operating costs permitting and such things and have done it with success for as many years as many of us have been.Everybody thinks you just jump in and drive they have NOT A CLUE what goes on behind the scanes audits from feds state mounds of paperwork and all.Go out and buy an l.p.g. bobtail jump in and drive,if you have a successful trip without the proper paperwork,insurance,good sound equipment(that will make it and pass a d.o.t. inspection)moer power to you!
didn't mean to offend you huffy, so sorry!
You're absolutely right about all the legalities and requirements involved in trucking.
I'm nearing retirement age, but got started driving big-rigs when I was too short to sit in the seat. And I date myself when I tell ya that I remember helping to drive survey stakes in the haulroad ROW before the dozers & gravel trucks got busy.
I visualize a fleet of trucks hauling propane to FBX to be a temporary emergency plan, not a business plan where there's a lot of profit margin to work with. The haulroad needs maintenance money too, so I'd expect to pay for road use and mobilize a few extra pieces of road equipment to help keep the gas-passing smoothly. There always seems to be mountains of hidden expenses in everything, and a good biz manager need always to anticipate this. I expect there will always be big demand for independent LPG-bobtail owner/operators, but as a LPG-gasline gets fully built down to FBX the total product sales will increase and the truck routes will be more in the borough/city oriented...
...this is when the profit margins will be good enough to pay us all back deferred compensation for making the sacrifices in the early days of the project. But at least we'll be passing some gas that can be distributed to fend off frostbite for those folks who really need the propane because fueloil was their only alternative.
Propane can be used more efficiently than fueloil with careful design, so less BTU's can do more efficient heating.
In today's economy I don't expect to secure a fat financing portfolio for a project like this. It's the 1950's all over again.
So huffy you tuffy-trucker...
if you want to become a LPG-bobtail owner/operator I'll be happy to help grow your biz. There's a need for a few big-rig LPG-tankers too, but I'm not expecting to truck as much as possible putting haulroad traffic into a red-flag condition. With good communications I'm guessing single and dual axle trucks can be operated safer per ton/mile on the haulroad. And there's a small but growing market for propane in the YuKoy that can drop demand for fueloil helping to flatten the price for fueloil in FBX...
..so I expect the first truckloads to be distributed in Wiseman, then Coldfoot, then broken down into portable bottles to be carried on winter-trails to Bettles, Stevens Village, Tanana before any lpg gets to FBX.
The goalpath is to plow all extra trucking profits back into expanding the noodle-pipes. So I can't promise "get rich quick"..
we're all freezing together.
[I'm outside right now, but might come back to FBX for Christmas maybe]
Any remarks?
safety thirst..
I know what it's like being burned from head to toe..
we don't want no mo' fireballs on th' ol' haulroad !!!
Let me tell the story,
I can tell it all,
about the mountain boy who ran illegal ethane-ol.
Sheesesh,beware of quoting Donald Trump, that pampered scion who was born into wealth originally taken from the Klondike gold rush by his grandfather who actually earned it through the good qualities we so admire, not the quasi-celebrity status of a bad haired, fish-lipped silver spooner.
Not that he is not capable of original thought, but to me he remains a hollow shell of someone not qualified to address issues he's never had to deal with like the rest of we poor aspiring slobs.
Distant thunder you have a lot more optomism than i do.It hs really hard to break into the independent market than you think it is.It is sewed up by the major trucking companies that are ready willing and able to kiss the oil companies asses to bet what bones they will throw them.I refuse to be an ass kisser like the four major trucking companies that haul freight up north and drop to their knees when ask to by the producers,And that is life up here now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQ...
here is another word of caution. when i lived in the lewiston clarkston valley, idahio washington, about 50 some years ago my dad worked for a crew putting in natural gas lines in residential areas and most homeowners hooked up to natural gas because it was cheaper than stove oil for heating and wives liked it for clothes dryers. but guess what after about two years the price of gas was the same roughly as the price of stove oil. so be careful what you choose. my take is to vote out any politician who is in office it can only help to improve our lives.
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