Letter to the Editor
Dismayed
Published Saturday, March 22, 2008
Digg
delicious
Facebook
Mixx
Reddit
Stumble It!March 14, 2008
To the editor:
I am so dismayed to hear that George Bush vetoed HR 2082, the Intelligence Authorization Bill. This bill banned torture of detainees in the form of waterboarding, sexual humiliation and the use of intimidation with vicious dogs.
All human beings deserve decency, and I’d like to see the United States model this basic right for the world.
It is also difficult to hear the president assert that the “United States does not torture” and then go on to veto this bill.
I hope that the days of this kind of hypocrisy are to be short-lived.
Community Discussion
Newsminer.com doesn't necessarily condone the comments here, nor does it review every post. Read our full user's agreement.
It's pretty hard to okay it when the government has been doing it already. Secrecy, lying, half truths, manipulated intelligence, obfuscation of truth, and stonewalling is the legacy of this Neo con administration of King Pinocchio and Shotgun Cheney.(Downing Street Memos)
The Neo Con owned News Media is in Collusion with the Neo Con Parasites infesting this Administration to the tune of the billions of borrowed American Taxpayer dollars bankrolling the propaganda of deception. I don't think the country will recover from the actions of this Neo Con infested Executive Branch, since the ethically, morally and legally bankrupt, as well as Conflict of Interest and Collusion challenged Neo Con United States Supreme Court Justices are in place to legalize the Gutting and Usurping of the same United States Constitution your so called Founding Fathers fought and died for.
Common sense dictates we attack immediate threats to our security before moving on to the long range threats.. So why did we get yanked out of Afghanistan just when we had Bin Laden and al-Qaeda in our clutches? We left it to explode with first 19,000 troops and now 30,000 troops.
While we're occupying a country with no ties to 9/11 with 160,000 worn out troops and equipment.
As in Vietnam, the insurgents hide out when the militarily superior Americans and their collaborators move into an area, and pop back up again after they leave. They begin their murder, mayhem and assassinations of collaborators, teachers, doctors and government officials.
No justice for the 3,000 murdered American Citizens on 9/11 because we quit looking for the perpretrators of 9/11.
No justice for the over 4,000 dead American troops in Iraq because they died in a country with no ties to 9/11 on a everchanging basis built on lies and deceit.
While that the Conflict of Interest and Collusion challenged Bush Administration, Family members, Friends and political cronies as well as the Republican and Democratic Legislators are raking in record profits of blood money with their financial holdings in companies making a profit off Iraq.
If my kid were hurt or killed in Iraq because of lies instead of going after the 9/11 perpretrators I'd be pretty pissed at the Neo Con Parasites!
Wake up and smell the coffee and quit listening to the Neo Con owned News Media propping up King Pinocchio and Shotgun Cheney!
King Pinocchio has been a failure in every dendeavor he tried and blamed everyone else but himself. With that said.. Open up the Secret Energy Task Force Meeting minutes held by Shotgun Cheney and the Neo Con Oil and Energy CEO's. You'll probably find the answer for the deliberate incompetence of this administration.
Go ahead and call it Treason. I served in the military and have a right to say what I will. I am not a Republican Mushroom.
According to my knowledge (and I'm open to more information if I'm incorrect), the Geneva Conventions safeguard against torture. The U.S. ratified, agreed to, signed or otherwise is bound by the terms of the Geneva Conventions (my husband, a soldier, informs me that he is, indeed, bound by the the Conventions, and that the army does not support/encourage/teach torture practices). If my knowledge is correct, then is it necessary to sign, create, agree to, or otherwise repeat an already-existing safeguard for human rights? Or is this just another way to play politics and waste time and money on Capitol Hill?
DVD - "my husband, a soldier, informs me that he is, indeed, bound by the the Conventions, and that the army does not support/encourage/teach torture practices"
So teaching waterboarding is not happening in the US military?
You might want to re-think that comment?
I do believe that we as Americans should not engage in this practice for two reasons: First, we are supposed to be the good guys. Second, we want to do everything possible to ensure that our own prisoners are treated according to civilized standards. While I believe that terrorist suspects should not be accorded protections of the Geneva Convention nor the rights of our criminal court system, I feel they should be treated humanely. I would hate to think that we are practicing torture in places like Guantanemo. Is waterboarding torture? Yes, I think it is.
U.S. domestic courts describe “the water cure” and “water torture” as human rights violations, and a means to coerce confessions, in In Re Estate of Ferdinand E. Marcos (D. Hawaii, 1995) and U.S. v. Lee (5th Cir., 1984). In Chile, the 2005 National Commission of Political Imprisonment and Torture, investigating abuses of the Pinochet era, documents the common use of water torture during interrogations. Argentine and Chilean criminal prosecutions continue today.
NOW heres a quote from 2005...Guess who said it?
“We’ve sent a message to the world that the United States is not like the terrorists. We have no grief for them, but what we are is a nation that upholds values and standards of behavior and treatment of all people, no matter how evil or bad they are. I think that this will help us enormously in winning the war for the hearts and minds of people throughout the world in the war on terror.”
War is a terrible, tragic event. That is why we should avoid it at almost all costs. Once the decision is made legally to go to war, there should not be any rule against torture. We are going to war to KILL THE ENEMY!! We are there to eradicate all of them and bring a swift, decisive end to the hostilities. The Geneva Convention should be abolished. No other country follows it, why should we? As a vet, I knew that if ever captured, escape was paramount and barring that, torture would be expected. We need to "man up" are realize that war is horrible and it brings many atrocities. NO Soldier/Sailor/Airman/Marine/Coast Guard should ever be prosecuted for stepping over the edge. They are taught to kill and not be killed and then when something bad happens, they are held accountable in a court of law?? This should NEVER happen to any serviceman/woman. My Lai, Abu Graib are unfortunate, but reasons that we should use war as a LAST RESORT!! Once at war...pull out ALL the stops!!
um No. YMBC. I don't want to rethink any of my comments. I'm quite clear when I speak (write), whether you agree with me or not. I'm pretty sure that basic training does not involve waterboarding techniques - I asked my husband if he learned any waterboarding or other techniques of torture in any of his training. Care to guess what his answer was? Any soldiers (or any of our armed service personnel), feel free to correct me on this.
Now. Let’s talk about why the bill was vetoed. Here’s a portion of the reasoning: “… my concern is the need to maintain a separate CIA program that will shield from disclosure to al Qaeda and other terrorists the interrogation techniques they may face upon capture. In accordance with a clear purpose of the "Military Commissions Act of 2006," my veto is intended to allow the continuation of a separate and classified CIA interrogation program that the Department of Justice has determined is lawful and that operates according to rules distinct from the more general rules applicable to the Department of Defense.”
My original question stands: If the wheel already exists, then is it necessary to re-invent it? From the bit of research I did today, the Army is bound by the United States Army Field Manual on Human Intelligence Collector Operations where torture is CLEARLY prohibited (including waterboarding). Among the many monetary issues in the bill, it attempted to apply the Army Manual to the CIA. This manual is available to ME, so it must be available to those that would harm us as well. I don’t want them having access to our military information. Sorry if that makes me evil, or less-informed from your standpoint.
I think that the letter-writer has misconstrued the intent of the initial bill and the subsequent veto, suggesting that somehow the US condones torture. I urge all of us to take a look at the bill itself, and the reasons behind Bush’s veto. I'm willing to bet that most of the war detractors won't look at this information, but if they do will just discount it as more "Bush lies," but I suppose that is their prerogative. Here are the links.
http://www.army.mil/institution/armypubl...
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/...
“We’ve sent a message to the world that the United States is not like the terrorists. We have no grief for them, but what we are is a nation that upholds values and standards of behavior and treatment of all people, no matter how evil or bad they are. I think that this will help us enormously in winning the war for the hearts and minds of people throughout the world in the war on terror.”
John McCain
DVD - "The Department of Defense ordered all branches of the services to implement comprehensive Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (S.E.R.E.) training programs. Every member of Congress should be extremely well versed on the military S.E.R.E. programs since they have had direct oversight and funding of these programs for over 40 years. Viewing the most recent Congressional hearing, one must assume that they are ignorant of or intentionally misrepresent the very programs that they fund and support." by “Spig” Wead is the pseudonym of a retired Naval aviator who served in the post-Vietnam era.]
"We live at a time where Americans, completely uninformed by an incurious media and enthralled by vengeance-based fantasy television shows like “24”, are actually cheering and encouraging such torture as justifiable revenge for the September 11 attacks. Having been a rescuer in one of those incidents and personally affected by both attacks, I am bewildered at how casually we have thrown off the mantle of world-leader in justice and honor. Who we have become? Because at this juncture, after Abu Ghraieb and other undignified exposed incidents of murder and torture, we appear to have become no better than our opponents." by Malcolm Nance
The wheels came off when we decided to play by the same rules as the terrorists. I know, bring on the beheading and nucleur (sp? intentional) arguments. We are now no better than them. When you take the rules out you get chaos and that is now where we stand. YouMustBConfused
YMBC - Again, you sidestep the issue. The US does not condone torture. According to the documentation that I offered to you above, this is quite clear. If you had bothered to read some of it, you would have seen some of the reasoning behind the veto of the bill – not all of it was “torture” related, and that which was did not condone it:
“Section 444 of the bill would impose additional Senate confirmation requirements on two national security positions the Director of the National Security Agency and the Director of the National Reconnaissance Office.” Read the rest yourself.
“Section 413 would create a new Inspector General for the Intelligence Community. This new office is duplicative and unnecessary.” Read the rest yourself.
“The CIA's ability to conduct a separate and specialized interrogation program for terrorists who possess the most critical information in the War on Terror has helped the United States prevent a number of attacks, including plots to fly passenger airplanes into the Library Tower in Los Angeles and into Heathrow Airport or buildings in downtown London. While details of the current CIA program are classified, the Attorney General has reviewed it and determined that it is lawful under existing domestic and international law, including Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.” Read the rest yourself.
“The United States opposes torture, and I remain committed to following international and domestic law regarding the humane treatment of people in its custody, including the ‘Detainee Treatment Act of 2005.’" Read the rest yourself.
“My disagreement over section 327 is not over any particular interrogation technique; for instance, it is not over waterboarding, WHICH IS NOT PART OF THE CURRENT CIA PROGRAM (emphasis added).” Read the rest yourself.
“Other provisions of the bill purport to require the executive branch to submit information to the Congress that may be constitutionally protected from disclosure, including information the disclosure of which could impair foreign relations, the national security, the deliberative processes of the Executive, or the performance of the Executive's constitutional duties.” Read the rest yourself.
“In addition, section 406 would require a consolidated inventory of Special Access Programs (SAPs) to be submitted to the Congress. Special Access Programs concern the most sensitive information maintained by the Government, and SAP materials are maintained separately precisely to avoid the existence of one document that can serve as a roadmap to our Nation's most vital information.” Read the rest yourself.
By the way – putting panties on someone’s head is not equal to sawing the head off a living human being. But, the people who did the panties are serving time for BREAKING THE RULES and defying the conventions that they are bound by. That right there is what differentiates us from those that you say we are identical to: we punish those that commit atrocities. Our enemies celebrate them. These are not equal.
Ms. Trainor,
The bill, if signed into law, would have, as I understand it, created a new intelligence head that would then be responsible for overseeing the intelligence agencies as well making all agencies operate under equal and publicly available interrogation techniques. Our president's intent, again as I understand it, was to keep the CIA out of the balloon of such leadership in order to keep privy the CIA's techniques so that terrorists and/or prisoners of war don't have our playbook, for lack of a better term. The CIA's existing procedures have been evaluated by the Department of Justice and deemed lawful. He is not suggesting torture is allowable or just, only that this bill would tie hands with unnecessary communications and addresses international laws already followed in the Geneva Conventions. It is not hypocritical, this is not an anti-torture bill it is, just as you wrote, an intelligence bill.
DVD "The US does not condone torture." Please, dont lower yourself to the "if you read it" level. You know I read it, it is my duty as an American. Your better than this.
Are you ready to admit that some in our armed forces are subjected to waterboarding?
This is what you typed " (my husband, a soldier, informs me that he is, indeed, bound by the the Conventions, and that the army does not support/encourage/teach torture practices). If my knowledge is correct, then is it necessary to sign, create, agree to, or otherwise repeat an already-existing safeguard for human rights?"
You asked for info. I gave that, lets start there. YouMustBConfused
You're right YMBC. I got a little condescending. My apologies.
Goodnight DVD, not a problem. Google SERE, interest stuff. Always question, always answer the call. You will come out alright in the end.
YMBC - I disagree with your starting point; I think the logical starting point is what the bill entailed, and why the President vetoed it - the original mistaken point of the letter. Perhaps you read it, and if you did you fell into the second category of people that I mentioned.
That being said, okay. Let's start from where YOU want to start from. I am willing to admit that there may be some people in the armed forces that violate the rules that they are bound by. Sure. Are you willing to admit that we punish those that are discovered?
I admitted it. Now. I'm willing to also admit that there are some people in law enforcement that are not honorable - I am not willing to admit that law enforcement itself condones the practices. I am willing to admit that some people that get drunk at the Greyhound drive home. I am not willing to admit that the bar condones it. I am willing to admit that there are abusive parents and teachers in the country. I am not willing to admit the PTA is a party to it. I am certainly not willing to admit that the government condones and encourages any of these types of practices. Do you get my point?
Are you willing to admit that there is a difference between panties on a head and a live decapitation? Are you willing to admit that those that are caught breaking the laws are usually punished for it? That is the difference between a nation or group of people that make it a practice to violate human rights. One punishes those that are found to be guilty. The other raises their children to repeat the atrocities.
George Bush, whether you like him or not, is the President of the United States and is privy to much information that neither you nor I will ever be knowledgeable of - as it should be, until the day one of us holds that office and faces the reality of war.
Now. Can we address the bill and the reasons behind its veto? To make it about "waterboarding" and "torture" is the sexy, "in thing" to do right now. Yes, dissent is so important, I know, but I think it is a grave injustice, bordering on treason, to accuse our armed forces of rampant human rights violations when a few isolated incidents are far from proof.
in the Air Force, at Survival School, we learned about the Geneva Convention. I thought that covered things like torture, and treatment of POW's. I think maybe we should torture MORE, and show em who is boss.
I also attended and taught Aircrew survival. At the basic Survival School, Amy is absolutely correct. They teach you about the Geneva Convention, and they expose you so very light torture. (if you are one that considers sleep deprivation and humilation torture, I personally do not) The school is run by former POWs from SE Asia. I also agree with Amy, we should be torturing more, not less. The Geneva Convention is not worth the paper it is written on!! We are thought of as a weak people with soft underbellies by some other nations, even our allies. The S. Koreans were the most respected troops in Viet Nam with the ears hanging from around their necks. Check out how the troops from countries like that train....it will give you an idea of how we SHOULD be trained.
"I'm not going to say what tactics the CIA uses, but they're carefully defined to abide by those principles that my colleague has spoken about that we will maintain, and it does not help to have senators claiming that unless we pass this law, we will tolerate torture. We don't, we haven't, and we won't." SEN. CHRISTOPHER BOND
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/...
"Bond serves as the Vice Chairman on the Senate Select Intelligence Committee, where he is working to give the Intelligence Community the tools to detect and disrupt planned terrorist attacks on America. In August 2007, Bond was the primary supporter of the Protect America Act, which, when signed into law, put the Intelligence Community back in the business of intercepting signals intelligence on al Qaeda and other terrorists." (http://bond.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?...)
Post a comment
Commenting requires registration.