After heated debate, Fairbanks adds three firefighters
Published Tuesday, January 13, 2009
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Stumble It!FAIRBANKS — The Fairbanks Fire Department will add three new positions to its staff with the help of a $325,140 grant from the Department of Homeland Security.
After a heated discussion Monday night, the Fairbanks City Council voted 4-2 to accept the grant despite the hefty toll it will take on the city’s $362,000 budget surplus for 2009.
The grant requires a city match of $1.07 million spread across the next five years.
According to Councilwoman Vivian Stiver, and Councilman Jerry Cleworth, that’s money the city doesn’t have.
Adding three new staff fulfills an agreement made more than six months ago during the negotiation of a controversial labor contract with the Fairbanks Firefighter’s Association.
Firefighters agreed to remove their request for a 10-man staffing minimum from the contract if the city agreed to fund three additional positions.
Fairbanks Fire Chief Warren Cummings has advocated for an increase in staff every year since 1994 and told the council the fire department has seen an increase in service calls in 2008, particularly those involving medical emergencies and simultaneous calls.
According to Fairbanks Fire Chief Warren Cummings, the city would not be required to maintain those three positions after five years.
Stiver — acknowledging the agreement — said she remembered it was dependent on whether or not the city had the money for the positions.
This year alone, the city will be responsible for $83,113.50 for the three positions.
“We have not identified a source of revenue,” Stiver said. “We simply don’t have the cash.”
Cleworth mentioned he was uncomfortable putting employees on the city payroll without a steady source of funding to balance the expense.
“We need to live within our means,” he said.
Councilwoman Emily Bratcher voted in favor of the grant but not without weighing in on how it could impact the city financially.
“It’s not about what promises were made but can these promises be kept when we’re dealing with the numbers we have,” she said.
Despite the city’s slim budget, Councilmen Chad Roberts, John Eberhart and Bernard Gatewood voted to uphold the agreement and accept the grant.
“I have reservations about going back on my word,” Roberts said. “We made a deal that if we didn’t raise the minimum staffing requirement we would apply for a grant to fund three new positions.”
Eberhart said if the council didn’t accept the grant it would face a “serious credibility problem.”
“I’m optimistic,” he said “I think we should live up to our promise and we will find the money.”
Gatewood said it would be in bad faith if the council went back on the agreement.
“Negotiations are always about compromise,” he said. “We compromised to go for this grant in lieu of the 10-man minimum.”
Contact staff writer Rebecca George at 459-7504.
Community Discussion
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My question simply is this...
Once a grant has expired and the city is burdened with the total cost of an employee, have they ever let said employee go?
Another budgetary failure of our city goverment
I listened to this discussion on the radio and all I can say is - WOW
Thanks Jerry and Vivian for respecting the taxpayer....all the rest of you are so out of touch.
“I have reservations about going back on my word,” Roberts said....
Mr Roberts - maybe you shouldn't have given your word, then - or at least been more careful on how you do it
I guess in five years if we can't afford this we can always annex Tok...and then maybe even Anchorage or Seattle
Sometimes it is difficult to keep one's promises. That's why honorable people are so rare in today's society and even rarer in politics. It's a trait I would like to encourage.
Once again the tax payer get it.. The City budget will be easy pretty soon, just give what ever we have to the Fire Department, the hell wiht the rest of the employees.
"When in Rome do like the Roman's". Need I say anything else?
Bugger, et al: If one of your houses ever catches fire, I expect you NOT to call the Fire Department, since it's such a bunch of money-wasting scum. I suppose you'll just put out the fire yourself, right? And treat any injuries yourself?
It's not just these three new positions, it's EVERY SINGLE DECISION made by the Fire Dept. You ALWAYS complain. If it's that bad, why don't you move somewhere with no fire service?
Henry the majority of people in this borough do not live in the city and do not use the city services. Do you even live in Fairbanks or vicinity.
SALES TAXES ARE A COMING. How do you think they expect to pay for it. They will make everyone pay for it. T
Thank you to the council for adding the positions. Yes, it does mean the city is going to have to find a way to fund the positions, but that is their job, along with recognizing the need to have those positions. I don't look at the situation as the firefighters
winning something over on the taxpayers, but as the firefighters and the city leaders recognizing the need for additional personnel to handle the higher volume of calls.
I, for one, want an adequately staffed department to handle the emergencies that arise in this town. This is not the same small Fairbanks we grew up in, it has grown and so has the number and type of calls the department must respond to.
Henry, where do you think the money for these union-wage firefighters comes from? If there's no money in your company's bank account, do you go hiring new people on the promise of a paycheck?
Wow! It baffles me how firefighters, especially City of Fairbanks firefighters, have become the enemy in this town. There isnt a SINGLE article on the News Miner about firefighters/fire service that doesnt create negative comments from the public. There are very few people on these comments that know what it is like to do the job and are extremely quick to judge.
In regards to this article, This is just one of several grants that the Fire Chief has been able to secure over the years that has saved the taxpayers millions of dollars for stuff like staffing, apparatus, stations, and fire prevention. All while still understaffed and overworked.
For the record, I am both a paid and volunteer firefighter in the area, neither with FFD
Henry - Thats like saying if I don't agree with the war and invoke my 1st amendment rights against it, I should leave this country. If bugger's house or mine catches fire I guarantee the fire department will be doing something else or screwup and another gaffney hotel fire will take place, hopefully without loss of life this time.
If the council doesn't understand the fire department and their contract they should subcontract it to someone who does. This would eliminate these screw-ups.
Henry - Thats like saying if I don't agree with the war and invoke my 1st amendment rights against it, I should leave this country.
If bugger's house or mine catches fire I guarantee the fire department will be doing something else or screwup and another gaffney hotel fire will take place, hopefully without loss of life this time.
If the council doesn't understand the fire department and their contract they should subcontract it to someone who does. This would eliminate these screw-ups.
Hilbilly, do you know anything about the gaffney hotel fire? When you say "will be doing something else" do you mean being on 3 or 4 calls AT THE SAME TIME like they were that night and which they often are on multiple calls? All with only 9 guys on duty.... people tend to leave out those little details.
I think the Gaffney Hotel fire is a wonderful example of exactaly WHY FFD needs additional staffing. They had so many other 911 calls at that point in time they simply had no people available to respond to that fire immediately. FFD does not control the number of emergency calls they go on a year, the public does that 100%. So if you are going to get mad at someone, get mad at them, not the fire fighters.
I don’t understand why people of this town view our Police and Fire Department as a burden on the city. They are essential services people in this down need every day. I have been blessed to never have needed their service, but can sleep comfortable at night knowing at any moment if I had too, I could call 9-1-1 and someone will be there to help. The cost of that security is priceless. Every place I have lived has had a sales tax to support the community in their financial needs, why is this such a problem?
Hilbilly, I hate to hear you bring up the Gaffney fire, as I am sure you know nothing about it. Do you think the firefighters in this town do not relive that moment in their heads every day? What could they have done better, how things would have gone if they were not spread so thin or overworked.
How about supporting the fact that with 3 more professionals on the staff, there will be additional responders to any incident. If there are multiple calls going on as the same time, with more staff we increase the chance of success. Not ever medical call or fire is going to be 100% successful no matter how many people are on staff, but the bottom line is these people show up and do their job.
From what Mr Cleworth mentioned at the meeting - we are currently AT the average staffing for a fire department for a city our size....
I would love to have 3 more people working with me at my job - however my boss can't afford it at the moment and we get by.
Public works has been abused for sometime now - and once again they will get nothing since we have blew the little we had left from this budget and it is only 2 weeks into the year.
More is always better, isn't it....
I'll tell you all what....make every single city employee live in the city limits AND pay the taxes incurred and then I will support whatever they want...they do it in the 'big' cities (ever wonder why?) - - and you all keep saying we aren't little old Fairbanks anymore!!!
Last I saw like 30% of Fire Fighters lived in the city - - they don't even have 'skin' in the game!!!! Easy to continue to want more when someone else has to pay for it!!!
These 3 positions will COST us over 1 million dollars over 5 years....this is NOT a paid grant - - its a scam
And please don't say 'don't call the FD when your house is burning down!!' - that's a ridiculous non-argument!
What will we ever do when half the city +1 works for the city - paychecks to infinity for all - and the 49% of us will pay I guess...where does it end!!!
Cleworth was wrong and spreading inaccurate information...FFD is below the national average and well below the national staffing standards...per friends in the area fire departments. Good to see a council that honors their words.
MarieBarr - Your way of thinking there should be 100 fireman on duty to cover any possible senario at all times. Maybe there could be if there are volunteers or as the university does use students to assist manpower. The Union wants their cake and eat it too. They want unlimited staffing but no volunteers or maybe students to assist.
Grizzly - Now don't you think that the night of the gaffney fire things could have been performed better? Where was the fire chief at the time if there was so many calls? He drives a city fire dept jeep as a bennie. How come he didn't earn his $200,000+ salary that night?
Thank you council members Roberts, Eberhart, and Gatewood. By spending only $1.07M, that we don't have, you've actually saved us $325,140.
It will be nice having 3 more firemen. Can we find any more savings by hiring more policemen with money that we don't have?
It's easy to cast judgment and do some armchair quarterbacking when you don't know what the job entails and are looking at an event in hindsight. When a bookkeeper (for example) makes a mistake on the job, it's not so bad and usually fixable. The police and firefighters in our town work in a profession of much higher stakes - and mistakes are judged very harshly by the community. Unless these men and women are incompetent or just plain evil (and c'mon - do you really think that they are?), I think we need to consider the good that they do. It far outweighs the mistakes.
I am not familiar enough to fully understand FFD's need for more firefighters, so I can't speak to that. I can say that I'm grateful that these men and women are willing to sacrifice their safety for me and mine.
I most certainly do not think that we need 100 firemen on duty. I do think that we need to look at how many calls FFD is getting, and what type of staff them accordingly. After looking at the information myself, I think 10 is a very reasonable minimum, but that 13 would be more prudent, with at least 4 of those being paramedics. 2 on each ambulance, with 2 ambulances staffed full time. And then 4 on each fire truck, with 2 fire trucks staffed full time. The 13th would be the Battalion Chief on duty that day. Each ambulance and fire truck would have 1 paramedic. This would ensure that staff from the fire trucks could staff additional ambulances if needed while still providing paramedic care. It also means that on critical calls, like cardiac arrests, when a fire truck automatically accompanies an ambulance that there would be 2 paramedics on scene.
4 are needed on each engine to adhere to the national standard to "two in two out". This standard states that no fire fighter should enter a burning building without a partner, and there should always be someone outside the building as backup, to provide rescue and support to the FFs inside the building. Thus, you have to have a minimum of two to go in, and 2 to stay out. You need 2 out because if they need to go in, there needs to be two of them. It's a safety standard that I believe is even used internationally, so you can't blame FFD for it.
jmho says:
Thank you to the council for adding the positions. Yes, it does mean the city is going to have to find a way to fund the positions, but that is their job, along with recognizing the need to have those positions. *snip* I, for one, want an adequately staffed department to handle the emergencies that arise in this town. This is not the same small Fairbanks we grew up in, it has grown and so has the number and type of calls the department must respond to.
Right on, jmho! Amen.
-jen
Wow, are some people's priorities in this community screwed up or what? They are willing to spend whatever it takes to assist chronic drug and alcohol abusers but !itch about supporting those that are actually saving people. I live outside of the city limits but I am glad to know that there will be additional first responders on duty when I drive into town and could possibly be involved in an accident.
Sounds like typical America (and my ex-wife) - Save by spending!
I think we should build the 3 new firefighters a new firesstation, purchase new trucks....heck lets keep BURNING through the money we don't have......
Its very possible that we can save $$ by spend. an extra firefighter could make a huge difference on a major fire, what if a city owned building went up in smoke. The difference from a few thousand $$$ in smoke and water damage and a few million in having to rebuild, it adds up dont you think.
Who, in their right mind, wouldn't be for more firemen? That's not the issue. The issue is paying for them. Squeezing more blood out of the turnip.
I'll bet you that if a neighbor from outside the city limits stopped by city hall, and left a check to help contribute to pay for these 3 new firemen, that it would be accepted and appreciated by the city government and the city taxpayers. We could start a new movement, voluntary contributions for services appreciated in the city. Borough residents would have a stake, as it were, in city finances.
Or we could just leave it to the city tax payers to foot the bill.
--
$1,070,000 taxpayer costs + $362,000 free money grant totals $1,432,000 for 5 years.
Cost per year is $286,000
Cost per year for each of the 3 fire fighters is $95,333.
Of course the city will need new revenue to cover the costs.
Average wage around Fairbanks is $25,000
Anyone ever figure out why trappers put free food in the trap? Or why they sell cars and houses with no money down?
- GOTCHA!!!
Thanks for taking the bait!
Yes, "Union Members Live better" because they live off of us stupid taxpayers.
1AkFox /s/ for Bernie Madof
Does the fire department have a volunteer squad or are they all paid?
PS
Looks like 4 city council members need a gonad transplant!
Can anyone who wants more and more firemen explain to me why there can't be a traininng system in place (similiar to the university) or volunteer paramedic or expierenced EMT III's working for the city of fairbanks? Is it simply because the council doesn't understand the fire department? If our paid proffessionals are soo good why don't they have a training program in place. If the fire chief wants more people how come he hasn't come up with a program. No excuses that volunteer or part-time paid system doesn't work. How about extending the university system in to the city? I'm sure that 70% or more of the city firemen came from the University. Wouldn't training students keep the professional fireman's skills up also? There are a lot big fire departments back east that have used volunteers for decades or more.
Fairbanks Fire Department is all paid. Locally there are several other fire departments. UFD is all paid, as is Airport, and the departments for both military bases. North Pole has several paid staff members per day, but they also accept volunteers to fill out the ranks. All the "volunteer" departments, Steese, Northstar, Chena Goldstream and Ester, use a combination of paid and volunteer FFs. Salcha, I believe is the only totally volunteer service, but I'm not 100% sure.
penney---
In the city, they are all full time paid union employees who negotiate a contract with the city.
Ooops. You beat me to it MarieBarr.
hillbilly - All the University's FFs are paid, so I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you suggesting that the students who are studying fire science volunteer at FFD as part of their education?
Well, I am very pleased that the FFD will have 1 more person on per shift. That should help a little. It is a tragedy that the FFD is so understaffed. What i dont understand is why are the taxpayers so against forking over the money to provide for essential services. Houses catch on fire, people crash thier cars, people go into cardiac arrest? This service is essential and the taxpayers need to realize that it is not a free service that they can just expect. Someones got to pay for it. Get with it folks and support the firefighters that YOU just might need one day. Oh, and you will need them someday....Its just a matter of time.
Some real concerns about fire dept staffing & cuts from across the nation:
://firefighterclosecalls.com/fullstory.php?78294
http://firefighterclosecalls.com/fullsto...
http://firefighterclosecalls.com/fullsto...
http://firefighterclosecalls.com/fullsto...
http://firefighterclosecalls.com/secret....
Wackford, I couldn't have said it better myself. It's kind of the same thing people say about the police - no one likes them until they need them. Sad people can't appreciate those who stick their necks out for them. I hope they never have to find out what it would be like if those people weren't around to help.
MarieBarr - The university fire dept is all paid. Aren't the levels of pay vastly different. Don't they have students that work as firemen that receive compensation ie. housing ect? They aren't paid what an experienced Captain or Battalion chief makes. This keeps the the cost down and allows staffing. I'm not against paid professionals. It seems that staffing is the issue and there are other ways to accomplish this without adding expensinve government workers. It is accomplished elsewhere. Maybe like North Pole or perhaps Juneau's combination of paid and volunteer.
I believe it was the late mayor nelson who tried to use university students as additional manning. This was maybe 20 years ago. Maybe it should be revisited now.
Are there enough beds for all of them to sleep in over there at the new fire station???
Hillbilly, if you can find the resources, I would invite you to compare the numbers of ALL the volunteer fire departments combined w/ those of the city. Weigh those for me and tell me a 24/7 paid and ready fire department isn't essential. I'm sure you'll tell me that anyway, as it seems you are set in your ideas. I won't make this personal. I just hope one day you aren't humbled.
hcbenfield - The city of fairbanks fire dept is a big fish in a very little pond. Just because a fire department is 24/7 doesn't mean it can't have additional personnel that volunteer. You act as tho this little department runs like new york city. If you are so busy how come you don't run 10hr shifts like they do? By the way how many real burning house fires did you have last year? 3 or 5? I assume you are a fireman.
If you read carefully, I'm for paid professionals.
By the way one day we will all be humbled.
you also need to keep in mind how hard it is to find dedicated volunteers. Most of the departments around here have summer hire programs because volunteers actually have lives and go to the lake and actually enjoy Alaska's summer...you can't necessarily depend on a volunteer always being available. I don't think that is a way for the City of Fairbanks to operate: "sorry we couldn't revive your child, all our staff went out fishing because it is such a nice day."
Police and Fire are necessary. Deal with it. You are all so willing to spend money on a war that protects the Iraqi people (not us like you are diluted into thinking) but aren't willing to protect the people right here at home.
Hilbilly,
Of course things could have been done differently, but FFD was slammed. Fort Wainwright, Steese, University and North Pole all were requested for mutual aid. The call was late in the evening, so the Fire Chief I presume was at home, but responded when the alarm came in. The on duty battalion chief was on another call in the Aurora subdivision.
How funny that you think I'm a fireman. Nope, not trained in that specialty, thank you. However, I am familiar with procedures, numbers, demands, protocols, etc. I come from an area of our country that was exclusively covered by volunteer fire departments and you could almost guarantee that most houses were a total loss, as these volunteers would have to get dressed, get in their POVs, drive to the station, get in their fire truck at the station, then drive from there to a residence. I think a house can become fully engaged in something like 12 minutes. In a place where people use dangerous and inadequate heat, where vehicle accidents happen daily, where you have an abundance of the population that seem to be unhealthy because of one reason or another, I feel a paid department is a wise decision. I've seen lives, homes, etc. lost because there was just no possible way to get volunteers there in time. It seems as though the volunteer departments in Fairbanks are run in a different manner which makes them more efficient, but you still have to figure that the majority of your personnel are at home or at work.
And yes, we are actually humbled every day. At least I know I am.
And hillbilly, must I bring out the tired old saying about assuming?
I trust that all of you who seem opposed to the Fire Dept. will refuse any services offered by that Department.
You better not be injured in a car accident within the city limits, or find yourself in a structure fire. I'm sure you'd hate to help justify the meaningless existence of those fat cat union firefighter commies. You certainly can't trust FFD to save you, so if they try to, it's obvsiouly a union scare tactic. Tell them off, like I know you will, and seek help from a VFD outside the City Limits.
While you're at it, make sure to tell your friend and family that whenever they need urgent medical attention, to make sure they're outside the City Limits before dialing 911, as that could result in relying on FFD.
Why oh why is the Fire Department your enemy? Of all the problems in Fairbanks, real or imagined, overstaffing the Fire Department shouldn't be one of them. I don't see any of you cowards willing to rush into a burning building to save a stranger.
So...let's just implement a sales tax. Good lord, 2% or 3% is nothing. There. Now we have a source of funding. Although I don't live in the city, I spend a lot of time (and money) here. Nice to know I can count on FPD to be there if I needed.
The bottom line for me is that the fire department is funded through taxes, therefore I do not want any of their service, period.
Anyone who truely feels that they want more than no service is free to reach into their pocket and pay for it. Those who argue that another person should be forced to pay for a service are thiefs.
Individually, the people who work for the Fairbanks Fire Department are honorable. Collectively, they're a bunch of thugs who demand that the counsil steal money for their behalf from their neighbors through property tax and from all of us through the federal income tax. They are not honorable and deserve all of the disdain that they get.
The city of Fairbanks can and should simply quit providing the service. Then those who want to provide fire protection and ambulance service can figure out how to provide that service at a price people are willing to pay freely. If they find that they aren't compensated adequately for their time, they are free to find another line of work like the rest of us.
Thanks to those who answered my question.
I come from a part of the lower 48 where most of the Fire departments and rescue squads are manned by mostly volunteers, so, I was curious how it was run up here.
Thanks to all you firemen, rescue workers and police who work to keep us safe everyday. It's a tough job!
Justliberty,
Even in the most free of free markets, some services simply cannot be provided adequately through the private sector in most circumstances. Public safety (Police, Fire, EMS) is one of those.
It simply wouldn't make sense to have these services be for-profit. The point is to diminish crime, fires, and injuries, not encourage them.
The idea that only individuals wanting these protections should pay for them is ludicrous. Having a "subscription service" to police, fire, and EMS would mean that the upper class could freely feed on the lower class, as only the wealthy would be afforded these rights.
Crime would run rampant, common thugs would reign in the streets (private police would only arrest profitable criminals), fires would consume entire cities (only those paying would get protection, but big fires spreading become near unstoppable), and disease would go untreated by those unable to afford it, thereby spreading to those that can.
What you speak of is not only incredibly short sighted, but near insanity. It is anarchy at it's core. Even many Free Market economists (think Adam Smith) admit that these services are best provided by government, and should be.
If only it were that simple justliberty. I don't have any kids and I don't like paying for schools, so should I just be able to NOT pay taxes for that either? What about welfare? I've never drawn welfare or been on unemployment, fortunately, but should I be allowed to NOT pay taxes for those either? After all, I don't use them and don't want to use them, so why should I pay? It's all silly logic - for our system of government to function, we have to pay taxes and theoretically the majority rules when it comes to how those tax dollars are spent.
All paid. They hate volunteer depts, even though most of them came up through one, got their major certs from one, etc.
UAFD is paid, but they don't make a living wage unless they're BCs. They're student firefighters, and that's a nice system if you can get it.
Meanwhile, City's union-paid firefighters (for goodness sakes, stop calling them "firemen," already) want to move their useless (but constantly staffed) Aurora fire station at a cost of over ONE MILLION dollars to taxpayers.
Some of us, while respecting the jobs our FF/EMTs do, can also see where money is being thrown at a lost cause. This is another bid to annex the West Fred's and to instill a sales tax. In a year, people will be yelling about how we HAVE to annex everything from here to Anderson just so we can pay for our fire department (well, our CITY fire department).
Ye Haw, Well said white! I myself am a professional firefighter. I am from Fairbanks and have not lived there in about 14 years. But for some reason i still care about the happenings there. Especially in the fire service. It really bothers me to know how understaffed the FFD is. For the past 11 years i have been working for a city on the west coast of the same size. We even have a river that runs through it. We have 4 fully staffed fire stations. Within those stations are 4 manned ambulances with 2 paramedics on board and 4 manned engines and or ladder trucks with at least 3 on each one, sometime 4. We operate at 21 persons per day staffing levels. FFD is at 9 i believe???? That does not make sense to me. We do run more calls than FFD but our populations are the same and the size of the city is the same. Also, we have a great relationship with our local government, as well as the people. Our taxpayers love the fire department. My Question is WHY cant Fairbanks have this as well. The FFD as a group and as individuals are great people who care about YOU, that is why they got into this field in the first place. We firefighters are not rich. We do this because we care about people and want to give back to the community. I just dont understand???
SeanWhite -
You are a firefighter, correct?
Cool - then I can assume you and all your brethren live in the City limits and help all those that do support your paychecks correct?
No one is saying we don't want extra fire fighters - we are saying you must come up with a way to pay for it FIRST!!!! Quit being irresponsible people!!
All you City Employees - move into the damn city FIRST - - then ask for your raises!!!!
Also - please provide links as to minimum manning requirements - would love to see them
Thanks!
Seanwhite. I suppose that it is a matter of perspective, but I would say that the firefighters union is banding together to 'elect' someone who fights for them against the citizens;
Public employee aren't 'Servents' because servents don't show up en-mass at counsil meetings to demand that they get their way - they serve so people will continue to employ them;
It isn't like paying for insurance, because we're free to choose from more than one insurance company and insurance companies don't threaten to take your property if you don't pay them;
If firefighters are dissatified with their compensation, they should leave.
Until then they should accept the disdaim of citizens that they well deserve.
Yes we need a good fire department in the city. We need sufficient staff, qualified staff and the proper equipment to assure proper service.
We need to pay for this fire department. This is not a business that produces a product for which there is a return to fund itself. The business does not produce an income and must be funded from outside the business structure. We are supposed to fund this fire department business on an annual level and we determine the limit of funding based on the level of funding available from our revenue sources. In this case the property and sales taxes are the revenue sources.
Grants can be another revenue source but in all cases a grant of money from somewhere for this fire department business is a liability for existing revenue sources. If city sales tax revenue decreases due to expected economic trends the city will raise the property taxes to maintain present budget spending.
If tax revenue is no longer capable of maintaing the annual city spending budget we can cut spending or find another revenue source. If we don't want more taxes the city is left with cutting the budget spending.
Now the city council will have to review all departments except for the fire department to make the necessary cuts. The council has locked in the fire department budget for the next five years. They have encumbered all future city councils for their actions last night.
The only solution around our given "word" to fund the fire department will be internal, from within the fire department itself. We will have to make up the revenue shortage by decreasing the wages and benefits of those 10 or 13 shift employees sufficiently to accomplish the balance. All should be in agreement with this solution because it assures the proper staffing levels and safety codes required to maintain an efficient and quality fire service for the city of Fairbanks.
My thanks and appreciation to our union firemen for stepping up to the plate and supporting their community by taking the necessary wage and benefit cuts to maintain the level of fire service at the standards they have determined suitable for our city. BRAVO! ! !
Your time is comming soon.
Firemen. There are still men in the fire service last time I checked.
SeanWhite,
You will never get it. Just because the feds say it should be 18 men means nothing. This is the same fed that just stole (how many trillions from the people through taxes and/or printed monopoly money to cover the corrupt international bankers) It will be the ruination of us all. Give me a break. Homeland security? We will all be lucky to have a job next year.
JustLiberty - This country needs more like you. Unfortunately we are now officially Socialist, Communist, or Facist take your pick. Thats why there are so many sheepole out there.
This blathering about making the FFs and police officers live in the city is senseless. Just because they work for the city doesn't mean they need to live there also. Many people who work for a company don't use their services, why should police and fire be any different. Not every Batista drinks coffee, should we start forcing them to? Forcing the employees to live inside the city won't affect the level of service one iota.
I can understand requiring someone who is going to be on call from home to live within a certain distance/time from the city, but inside the city limits just doesn't make sense.
They aren't using the city services so your point is....?
Wackford,
I hope you are not from California, your overweight fire dept will be receiving IOU's soon. Maybe if you cut the size of your fire dept say in half (about the size of Fairbanks) you may keep you job if you have enough senority. Thank you Jerry, keep up he good work..
They pay for the service they do use though, which is why you aren't making any sense. The government has defined areas where the people within that area are held responsible for paying for a service. In Fairbanks, the people within the city pay for the services the city provides. Outside the city the people in CGFRs service area pay for service from CGFR, people in Ester's service area pay for service from Ester.
Is it so hard to believe that proper staffing occurs in other cities?? I am not working in california. I am in the Northwest. Do you think i am lying about my numbers. Cause i am not. I have no reason too. We are not overweight either. We are adequately staffed. My job and even the lowest on the seniority chains job is quite secure. As a matter of fact we just hired 5 more firefighters and they are in thier recruit school right now. It is possible to provide a city with proper fire protection, which i hope the city of fairbanks will one day achieve. Oh and i dont live in the city i work in either. I live 45 minutes away. No one cares either, especially the taxpayers. Why would they care? Why do you care if Sean White lives in the city? If he wants to live in the woods or in the tiki cove on top the polaris its his business and right. I tell you, i think all that seasonal affective disorder and -45 below is really clogging you conservative city taxpayers brain boxes...
City of Fairbanks, you can hire all you want. Just do not ask the people who live outside of the city to pay your bills for you. While your at it, why don't you stop accepting mutual aid responds from the volunteers who do not make a penny off of fighting a fire or placing their lives in harm way. Here's to the volunteer fire departments, the true meaning of a firefighter. One who risk their lives for their fellow man with no concern regarding a paycheck.
Wackford,
Let's not lump we fiscal conservatives in there with the people that have no concept of actual Free Market economics as well as the need for Public Services.
These people don't actually seem to understand that the two were intended to co-exist, but instead spout of the Limbaugh garbage supporting corporate monoliths, which borders more on fascism than capitalism.
It is possible to want to limit wasteful government spending (as a whole) and still provide necessary services to residents.
If people want to start cutting excess borough money, there are a lot of other places to start besides Public Safety.
Mike, that is what the City Council and Mayor are for. That isn't the FFs job.
What....? You dont want new teachers, you dont want fire service, so what is it that you want? I dont get it...
Pleblian;
You are free to pay whatever you want for what ever service you want in a free market, you are not free to impose your demand for service on your neighbor in a free society. In our society, we’ve made the mistake of accepting your argument and are suffering from a bloated-self serving bureaucracy that bands together against the citizens they supposedly serve to elect despots loyal to their demands who have no compunction against enslaving their subjects.
Crime, if that means the involuntary transfer of wealth, is already rampant. It is perpetrated from city halls, state capitols, and our congress and is encouraged by those who are profiting form the excessive public compensation packages. Al Capone was heavily criticized for operating a similar protection racket early in the last century.
This is incredibly short sighted, because it has always resulted in civil conflict throughout history. Civil conflict will increase in our society as citizens grow increasingly tired of being subjected to the demands of their bureaucratic oppressors.
Bureaucrats exploit our fear of change to maintain their power. They proclaim that the worst will happen, while there’s no reason to expect that will be the result. We cannot predict exactly how the risk of fires will be addressed, nor how EMS services will be provided if people are free to solve the problem voluntarily, because there are an infinite variety of possibilities. But if we had employed the collectivist strategy to the fabric industry in the middle of the 19th century, people would still be forced to pick cotton by hand. (Now read the previous paragraph about civil conflict again.)
I am less concerned about common thugs than the organized thugs that public employee unions have become.
JustLiberty,
You don't get it. You apparently DON'T understand the "Free Market". Please, read Adam Smith's works (try The Wealth of Nations for starters). If you want to argue Free Market economics, you need to understand them in their entirety. Taking it out of context misses the point. They're probably far different, and more complicated, than you think.
Public Services are meant to be provided outside of Free Market economics (but within the same society). The two are intended to co-exist. Please, please, please read up on this.
Trippwire:
The answer to all of your questions is "Yes" you shouldn't be forced to pay for any of those services.
Consider the root word 'govern', it means to limit, it doesn't mean to 'provide'.
People have a right to work with their neighbors to provide goods and services. We have sean many creative solutions to address needs when people exercise their freedom to provide.
We need to govern our desire to impose our will on our neighbors.
Justliberty-
Are you out of your mind!?!?!?!?!?
Fire departments used to be subscriber based entities...BACK IN THE 19TH CENTURY. Insurance companies provided them solely for responding to firesin the homes of their customers. Cties would have multiple (and competing) fire departments...
and they realized what was wrong...entire cities were burning down!!!! because the fire departments would refuse to fight fires in houses not affiliated with their insurance companies...until the fire spread to one that was...but by then it was out of control and next thing you know...poof...no Manhattan
As for the rest of you who advocate abolishing FFD, I assume you're all local volunteer firefighters who live in the city of Fairbanks and are just itching for a chance to protect you home town...right?? Wrong! If any of you had a clue as to the dedication it takes to be a volunteer firefighter you'd understand it is NOT POSSIBLE to muster enough volunteers to even attempt to staff FFD for one day. They can get up to 30 or so calls a day. The volunteer departments are lucky if they get that in a month or 2, and they still have trouble staffing calls as it is. If it weren't for their paid staff the vol. departments would fall apart. Do you have any idea of the training it takes to become a firefighter? Do you want to wake up and stumble out of bed at 3am to drive to the station and run a call? Do you want to have people yell at you when you have to go to Fred's right after your shift ends and you forgot to bring a change of clothes so that no one accuses you of stealing their tax dollars (even though your shirt very clearly says Volunteer FD on it)?? Thought not...
Recruit 100 volunteers? What are you going to do, bring up illegal aliens from LA??
And what's funny is that I often hear people kvetching on these forums about how long it took for an ambulance to get on scene when they called 911...why do you think that is?????? Your city leaders are trying to do something about that, and this is the solution...
Jerry Cleworth is a disgrace to this city...I've worked in FD's Outside, and let me tell you, FFD is nowhere near up to par on manpower (or stations). A similar sized city would probably have 3 stations with 18 FF's on duty at a time.
Seems like the easiest way to pay for the 3 new positions, is to eliminate 3 other positions within the city ask for volunteers. You do not have do all from one office, 1 from police, 1 from sanitation etc.. Offer the laid-off employees the first chance at the new firefighter positions and train them.
Here's another thought:
Maybe if you people stopped driving drunk and running into things, beating your wives, and neglecting to clean your chimneys, Emergency Services wouldn't be necessary
Wackford,
Let's see, 30%-40% federal income tax, your state tax 5%+, 6% to the biggest ponzi scheme ever, and what's yours local sales tax? 6%-9%.
Property tax?
.
Now I know why we need so many police officers, The only way people can survive from government fleecing is to steal or sell drugs. I hope you are happy wherever you are at, there is more than enough socialism here. I DON'T WANT ANY MORE TAXES. Reduce services city council. We can't afford your $90.000 fireman and your $200,000+ fire chief.
Wackford:
You state that firefighters "...do this because we care about people and want to give back to the community. I just dont understand???"
If they wanted to 'give back to the community', there wouldn't be any controversy.
The fact is that they are trying to prevent anyone from competing with them and they are want to demand all of the conditions underwhich they provide the service. That isn't giving back to the community. That is self-rightous BS. Now do you understand?
Oh, and for you guys throwing around that "$90,000 firefighter" crap, you realize that the average firefighter only makes half of that right? If there's a ridiculous amount of money spent on them that is also factored into the equation its:
1. gear - which is insanely expensive, but hey the volunteer departments have to outfit a whole ton more FF's than FFD does and they aren't guaranteed to get a return on that investment...and
2. health insurance - maybe if you people got half as mad about the insurance companies fleecing all of us like this we could take our country back from those who are holding us, our wallets, and our tax dollars hostage...the bloody insurance companies
oh yea and...
3. overtime...guess what, having to pay out time and a half to maintain minimum staffing will also decrease once FFD gets more people on board.
justliberty - All the FFs have families and lives too, they can't provide their services for a pittance if you expect to keep good, well trained staff. Judging by the comments on any thread about FFD, if some people had it their way the FFs would be paid minimum wage, with no benefits. THAT is why the union is necessary
Caligula24:
I did work on a volunteer fire department for a few years. It was satisfying for awhile, but it was lead by a self-rightous chief who was looking for a job with a paid department. We really didn't have that many fires to put out, so we became involved in 'backing up' ambulance calls. The majority of those calls were to serve irresponsible people who should suffer the consequences of their folly.
Most jobs take dedication to perform successfully, firefighters are no exception but they seam to think they're entitled to special consideration. That is baloney.
They tend to make work to justify their existance (and to assuage their ego). They need to be moderated by competition just like the rest of us.
Perhaps there's a justification for taxing the public to provide protection against fires spreading to exposed property, but the choice of the level of protection against damage to an individual's property should be left to the individual. Society is neither obligated to provide the level of protection an individual might desire, nor empowered to impose a standard of protection (or addressing the risk in a specific way) upon the individual.
I have no problem with letting buildings outside of fire protection districts burn, the individual had the choice to purchase the protection. I also have no problems with letting drunks die from exposure or accidents. We have no obligation to protect them from themselves.
Our police and fire departments have gone way beyond the task of providing public protection and are now ingaged in providing a public service that can and should be left to the private economy to provide.
When all of the self rightous posturing is boiled off of the union's arguements, they are trying to maintain an advantage over the rest of the citizens through despotism. That is the evil that needs to be governed.
To the extent that the fire fighters union advocates compelling individuals to purchase their services and prevent others from offering a competing service, they are enemys of the public and deserve all of the public disdain that is heaped upon them.
caligula24
Thanks for the history of fire departments.
30 calls a day?? really? about 10,800 a year? The poor overworked firemen. You pat yourself on the back on how dangerous your job is. Since you have all the facts, how many fairbanks firemen have been killed or seriously injured in it's entire history. We know it can be a dangerous job, but so is over the road trucking. Or perhaps commerical fishing? Or steel workers? ect. I'm sure all of these perfessions have more fatlities. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the Taxi cab drivers have had many more fatalities in fairbanks than either the police or firefighters combined. So please don't tell us how hard you have it. You are not alone. FFD is not new york city fighting 3 or more fires a day. I doubt that the FFD fights much more that 3 good working fires a year.
And who cares what they do facist america. If you want more staffing for safety or whatever add three or more apprentice firemen or volunteers. If they put their time in they can get hired on full time when someone retires.
Again, thank you Jerry and Vivian for keeping constraints on these people.
Hilbily - It's nationally recognized that a department needs 6 volunteers to equal 1 full time paid staff member.
Maribarr;
Regarding your comment to Mike:
"that is what the City Council and Mayor are for. That isn't the FFs job."
Isn't that just another way of saying "steal from the other guy and pass the benefit to me"?
Just Liberty, you are an idiot. Period. I'm sorry, but I can't understand your comments any other way. You rant about the free market, yet fail to understand it. You lecture at length about fire and police services, and their unions, yet you show no understanding of what they do and how they do it.
Police and Fire and similar services should ABSOLUTELY NOT be left to the private sector to provide. Do you really and honestly believe that a private security firm (like, say, Blackwater) would provide the same level or service that City or State police do? Really? Do you really believe that a private fire service would provide the same level of coverage that the FFD does? Really?
Private fire services used to exist. They drove past houses that weren't worth enough. They ignored the poor. They ignored and left to burn those houses that subscribed to a competing service. People died because their private fire service didn't care enough.
Private policing used to exist as well. The Pinkertons used to be more than just mall cops and armored car drivers. They were a semi-legitimate private police force. The Pinkertons were employed by the railroads to attack and KILL striking railroad workers and their families. They set a company town, filled with women and children, on fire because the mine owner wanted his workers to stop striking. They yelled "Fire" in crowded theatres leading to children being trampled to death.
If that is the country you want to live in, well, then, that's too bad, because it won't happen here. In the meantime, I suggest that you research the free market system you claim to believe in, and the historial use of private police and fire services. It may change your mind.
For the record, I am not a firefighter, police officer, other city employee, or a city resident.
Mariebarr:
Society is better off with 6 volunteers than one person full time staff member.
Take a look outside of the city. The volunteer departments are argueably less cost effective than the city's paid department, yet they don't generate the level of resentment. ... The reason, they don't have a union manipulating elections and holding themselves above the rest of us. ... Money really isn't the issue.
Taurus the Bull: You are free to contribute as much as you like to support city services, just don't impose your generosity on the rest of us.
hillbilly, you're a bit slow eh?
somedays there can be 30 calls, some 5...
10000 calls is a lot for any dept. I forget exactly what ffd averages, but its up there
their medic unit is one of the busiest in the country
the fire service is a lot more than firefighting nowadays, maybe do a ridealong and you'll see what I mean
good luck finding "apprentice" or student firfighters...the U takes anybody who's worth their salt, and the rest are going to go to ANC or outside where they can make a good chunk of change more
JL, not at all. The FFs tell the city "this is what we need" and it is the City Council/Mayor's responsibility to find out if it's necessary, how big of a priority it is, how much it's going to cost, where the money is going to come from etc.
So wait, you would be willing to pay MORE for non-union FFs strictly to get rid of the union?
Also, CGFR used to be a subscription service, years (a good 20 plus) ago. They were lucky enough to be prominently featured on the cover of a national fire fighting magazine with the headline "Pay or Burn".
Subscription programs are only popular until a family of 5 with 3 kids dies in a fire because they didn't pay for the service. Just look at the reaction after the Fox fire last year. People were FURIOUS that Steese did not fight the fire even though the house was outside the tax district. There is definitely an expectation that fire service will be provided to everyone.
caligula24,
Yes, I are a little slow. reminds me hunting crows back in them thar hills and my buddy says to me those aren't crows there ducks. I says IBMRducks.
MarieBarr,
Add 18 volunteers and forgo the 3 paid guys or gals.
Those 18 volunteers are still going to cost money, without the guarantee of coverage. If they hire 3 FFs they need to buy 3 sets of bunker gear. If they "hire" 18 volunteers now they need to pay for 18 sets of bunker gear. How is that economical?
Plus FFD would have to pay additional workers comp insurance and such for 18 people instead of 3. Again, not very economical.
How does the $95,000 per year compare to other rural towns with a 35,000 population?
$25,000 is what the average worker makes in Fairbanks!
Yes, "City union members DO live better" because they live off the taxpayers working at UAF, FNSB School District, Borough, and other government or non-government employers such as McDonald's, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot and FMH.
By the way, the current City Council is not bound by any prior Council's appropriation. Why? Because the Council is a sovereign legislative entity. Their power of appropriation is absolute, just like Congress, and the Alaska State Legislature.
Also, their power of taxation is nearly absolute, meaning they CAN impose ANY tax they want subject to the city charter.
This is why it is important to pay attention to who you vote for. Union backed candidates back unions and take care of their very generous contracts by taxing us.
We can starve, lose our jobs, our houses our 401k-s to pay their wages!
But they never ever take a cut, because they have control of the City Council's "power of taxation and appropriation" to fill their pockets.
The grant requires a city match of $1.07 million spread across the next five years.
According to 2007 Census Bureau estimates, the population of the city is 34,540
Ok some more math for you people---
$1.07mil over 5 Years = $214,000/yr
Follow me so far?
Divided by 34,000 people...
$6.29/yr per person
Heck most of you waste more than that on idling your car during the winter, or a PREMIUM cup of coffee.
That $6.29 per person ONCE A YEAR!!!
Id gladly pay my round about $32 all up front for these 3 individuals just to know that possibly just possibly they would pull my daughter out of the car after an accident, or even one of you whiney jerks that just can seem to want to break open that tight wad wallet of yours and pay your measly $32 dollars for 5 YEARS worth of what ifs... Just sleep well knowing that you dont want them and know that you'll never be in a car accident or a house fire, cause you just know it will never happen to you...
You might actually want to start backing things up with facts. Hilbilly, you have GOT to be kidding me if you think this FD only fights 3-5 "good working fires" per year. You are obviously living in an alternate reality.
http://www.fairbanksfirefighters.org/
Henry; We're both idiots, we just disagree.
You are free to assign any value and pay all you'd like for any of these services.
Where we differ, is that you are advocating forcing me to agree with the value that you asign, at least to the extent that you apparently would force me to pay for the level of service that you expect, that is beyond your right.
You use the case of Blackwater to illustrate your point, it substantiales mine. Someone is unhappy with the manner in which they provide the service so their contract isn't renewed. That doesn't change history, but it will change the future.
The people of Iraq were allowed to get rid of Blackwater, but they're not allowed to get rid of the US military. Yet our military has caused far more destruction and killed many more Iraqies than Blackwater. Why do we complain about private security firms killing people with guns, but we don't complain about direct public employees killing people with bombs? Does the fact that they're a direct public employee exonerate them? In our eyes yes, in the eyes of the almighty - probably not.
Similarly, we're not allowed to choose other alternatives when it comes to fire protection and ambulance service.
(Continued on next post.)
Henry:
You seam to assume that because something was less than perfect about the security and fire protection service market one hundred years ago that the freemarket model doesn't work. Nothing is perfect. The current security and fire protection service delivery model is less than perfect as well.
The question is whether it's necessary to usurp the right of individuals to make choices about how the service is delivered and the consequence of usurping that right. At the very least, we should strive to reduce the need to usurp a right if liberty is worth preserving. We cannot do that if we insist on a collectivist service delivery model. (Which is the alternative to a freemarket approach and is being advocated in the case of security and fire protection services.)
Think about it objectively. The root cause of the problem we wanted to correct in Iraq was essentially that the public employee union got completely out of hand. I'm not claiming that the situation is that far out of hand in Fairbanks, but why not move away from that model of organizing society as far as we can, rather than moving closer to it?
A legitimate use of government power is to stop private companies and individuals from abusing the rights of others. Pinkerton should have been stopped, because they were abusing another's right.
On the other hand, that shouldn't be a pretext for taking the service out of the hands of the private sector. Letting the government provide the service doesn't perfect its delivery or even eliminate the possibility of abuse. As you recall, it was government controlled security service that killed the students at Kent State and broke up many civil rights demonstrations, some of which were as peaceful as the union organizing activity to which you refer. Similarly, government controlled fire departments are unable to protect homes from wild fires in California. So relying on government services has its problems as well.
Imperfection abounds whether we're talking about the free market or the collectivist market. History proves that bigger mistakes are made through the collectivist decision making process while smaller mistakes are made through the free market approach. That is why our ancestors chose to base their society on the free market model.
Expediancy shouldn't be the driving force of our action. Respect for the rights of others should.
JWC:
I might be inclined to GIVE you $32 dollars to provide the service. What is proposed is TAKING the $32, I object to that in the same way that I'd object to your coming into my house and steeling the mony or mugging me to obtain it.
(I really don't care how you plan to spend the money you steel, I object to your plan to steel it.)
JL. If you live within city limits you can exempt yourself from fire service, and I believe EMS service. With some innovation and some money you could set up a home sprinkler system and also some sort of fire fighting system that you yourself could use on your home.
Just Liberty, you think that private fire and police service was "less than perfect?" It was about the opposite of perfect.
And the oversight you propose for your private services--who is going to pay for that? Taxes? But, that would be TAKING your money, right?
"History proves that bigger mistakes are made through the collectivist decision making process while smaller mistakes are made through the free market approach." You're kidding, right? For every Kent State, there's a Homestead Strike and a Calumet Disaster.
You seem to think that I insist on MY value for these services being accepted. I have an idea of what the value of adequate fire and police protection is, but I think the effective value should be (as it currently is) decided and implemented by an elected body. If you disagree with the city council/legislature/congress/whatever, campaign and vote for different politicians.
Obviously, common sense is wasted on you. I give up. Believe whatever you want.
hcbenfield'
If you know so much, how many real working fires do they fight? Not car fires, dryer fires, or kitchen fires that are already out. and not automatic fire alarms that rarely if ever have a fire. I'm speaking of a large bldg thats cooking in the basement. I am not to far off am I??
caligula24,
Come on, Medic one is one of the busiest in the country. Are you smoking crack or weed? There are hospital based paramedics units in the states that run 10-15 code calls in a 10 hour shift everyday. Not code 1 calls from the hospital to the airport. And paramedic units that actually have a run time longer than a minute or two. Whatever you are smoking please share!!!
jwc,
If I want to spend my after tax dollars on a cup of coffee or whatever thats my right. You can spend yours on a new fireman or firewoman.
MarieBarr
I can decline the service, and I do provide my own protection, but I haven't been granted the liberty to exempt myself from paying the tax. That is the issue. They are steeling from me to provide the service.
1. Stealing, not steeling.
And yes, you can exempt yourself from the fire service tax, just ask the guy who owns Lakeview Terrace. You also always have the option of moving out of the city if you don't like their taxes.
How many car fires, kitchen fires, and dryer fires has FFD stopped from turning into full working fires?
If you don't want to pay the tax, then either elect representatives who will repeal it or move out of the city/borough! Those are your only options!
Marie,
answer: none
how can a car fire turn into full working fire?? I guess if it was in a garage maybe. Probably 90%+ of kitchen fires are out by the occupant or on it's own. and well dryer fires are self contained in the dryer. They just stink.
I remember the protesters during the vietnam war exercising their first amendment rights against the war. The Pro war side said if you don't like it (the country) leave it. I really don't think justliberty needs to leave the city because he exercises his first amendment rights. 50,000 dead and for what?
Hilbilly, I think you just enjoy being a stinker. At least I can smile at the wit. But let me throw this your way.
How many fully engaged fires do you think were probably prevented because the people responding were close by, alert, ready and prepared, therefore reducing the time between the onset of a fire and the time of the department's arrival? The goal here is to NOT have a huge fire, but to get to it before it turns into one. Wouldn't you rather have someone at your house BEFORE you lost everything you owned? In my humble opinion, the only thing HUGE fires are good for is storytelling. They're certainly not good fortune for anyone involved.
I bet you are wrong. Car fires, ok, not very likely but possible. A car fire inside a garage or within 5 - 8 feet of a structure or another vehicle could end up spreading pretty easily.
Not all dryer fires are contained within the dryer, and I think you are putting way too much weight on the abilities of the homeowner. Are you really willing to bet on peoples lives and say the fire department isn't needed for any of those 3 types of fires?
Let's try a sidebar...
Why argue about firefighters? People will bitch til they need them. However, anybody that can wipe themselves shouldn't be against firemen.
Why don't you (Fbnks residence) cry foul about YOUR elected officials failing to plan. This didn't sneak up on the council. They agreed to this six months ago. Common sense says that when entering into an agreement, both parties should be able to uphold their end of the deal.
hcbenfield,
I think you are finally right. Sorry
Thank you. I guess I just took a long way to the shortest point. :)
Hillbilly- which department are you with? You have way to much knowledge (though inaccurate) and terminology not to be in the fire service- you MUTT. Tell us who you are with so we can throw stones just as you are. Do you live in the City like some of us?
FFD is the busiest department in the FNSB. I have close friends in that department, they go on more "working fires" then anyone else...entry fires not just mutual aid. Isn't the mark of a good FD that they catch the fires small and put them out before they burn down? Common sesne...small fires get big if not put out. People need ambulances.
Their ambulance (Medic 1?) is one of the busiest in the state, on par with Anchorage (and I have many firends there). All the guys/gals I know in the fire service around here speak highly of FFD- they have changed a lot over the past few years.
I dont really care for the way they went about getting the money for the new firefighters but i do think we need them. I for one have alot of respect for them my dad was one for twenty years. Anybody that would risk their own life to come into my burning house to save my life or come and save me if i was in a wreck than i would gladly pay a sales of three percent for say grociers and clothing as long as it only went to fire and police and could never be raised but that is a pipe dream. I myself would not run down the firefighters or rescue crew. You guys are the real heros in my opinion. Just to make it clear i am not claiming or assuming no posters are putting down the firefighter or rescue personel.
Chris,
I used to work in a high volume paramedic service. We used to poke fun at the fire department all the time. Hell, if I wasn't so old I could volunteer at FFD as a paramedic and save the city some money.
Working and managing a busy priviate service taught me alot about cost savings.
I don't work for any Department. Grunting gurneys and age is a
brutal combination. Enjoy your youth while you can.
hilbilly, something tells me I wouldn't want you anywhere near me in the back of an ambulance...
I said medic one is one of the busiest, I can't find the list on the net now, and it was from a year or so ago, but they were up there, higher than they should be. I never said they run serious calls, heck, its mostly picking up drunks, and tx from hospital, but per 24hr shift, they do a lot of it...but nevertheless, someone's got to do it, so every time they're tied up babysitting some hobo, that's time they can't respond as quickly when I might need them. So I'd rather have some more firefighters so they can get another ambulance on the road quicker. The only other option is locking up all the drunks or having FMH start their own ambulance service to handle non-emergency calls.
Next, um hello, a structure fire just today started b/c of a car fire in the garage, and I've seen a whole lot of simple kitchen fires or dryer fires burn down a house, or at least burn up a room and contents pretty darned good...so don't give me any crap about FFD not being useful unless its on a fully involved working fire...
justliberty...I hope you live in Livengood, if not you should look into moving there, something tells me it'd save you a lot of headaches...but then you'd have nothing to rail on about eh?
Mariebarr & caligula 24;
Lakeview is outside of the city limits.
Moving out of the city or borough to escape the tax is ineffective. The grant that precipitated this debate is funded by stealing money from everyone in the country through the income tax.
I was a firefighter for five years. It's an excruciating job. You see things so gruesome you never forget them. I left my department 3 years ago and still have recurring nightmares about what I've seen. I truly believe every firefighter deserves a paycheck, health, life and disability insurance and a pension. These men and women are brave enough to put their lives on the line everyday when they go to work. How many of you are brave enough to run into a burning building to save a child's pet? I know I can say I am and if my shoulder wasn't so messed up I'd be back in a heartbeat.
I have read all the comments and it's a generational problem, not a fire fighter problem. We have been living on CREDIT too long. Whether it's the AK TRS/PERS crisis (over 10 billion in the red), our national debt or foreclosures, it's all because we have not, as a nation the past 20-40 years, paid our way in a sensible manner. Individually, we have to budget for our mortgage, utilities or essential items, and we are ALSO expected to have a "nest egg" in case of an emergency. We have not done this as a people, so the entire system is now imploding on itself, like a large city fire without enough fire fighters. Instead, the USA has payed for a war we didn't need on credit, gave away loans to anyone who wants a fancy house they didn't need and handed out credit cards like candy, again to people who didn't need them, not to mention even THINKING of trying to save some kind of a "nest egg." We should have tens of trillions to spare, treatment centers for the sick, housing for the less fortunate, state of the art schools, free colleges, and an infrastructure that is not on the verge of collapse, including a healthy fire fighting crew. If the government is so smart as to recommend what a "minimum fire crew" is, why don't they also have national funding across the board. Instead, it's now a dog eat dog world and the money is gone. Wait and see when the real fun begins after social security goes broke. So far, we have been keeping the poor "at peace" by handing out social security disability benefits for people with no real physical disability. Bunker down, it's going to get interesting. I guess my point is there are no easy answers these days but we are at least still talking instead of fighting like they do on the streets in third world countries, so stay involved! Thanks for your comments and everyone's opinion...we are all "right" in our own way. Whether or not you hire 3 fire fighters or fire 3 is insignificant when we, as a society, do not have an overall plan similar to our family budget. I just think we are all tired of stealing from Peter to pay Paul, and it only depends on whether you support Peter or Paul that dictates your opinion. Keep up the dialog.
Lots of talk about volunteers and it is probably coming from contributors who have never volunteered one single hour in a fire station. Lets turn to volunteers for public works, the police department and the city financed department, what do you say. Thank goodness that there are council members willing to take this "I'm against everything and not wanting to pay for anything" rhetoric that this town is so famous for and make the tough decision to do the the right thing and hire additional staff for the FFD. Tough decisions in political arenas always come with a litney of niegh sayers. I am in complete support of increased staff at the fire department - thankful that those people are there willing to risk their own well being for my safety. Those of you opposed, go grab that water hose at -45 and hose down that house, jump in that ambulance and go scrape that inebriate covered with puke up off the sidewalk and transport them to a caregiver.
Well I sat and watched as my house burnt to the ground, as my city fire department, consisted of 3 firefighters on a shift, struggled to put it out, until mutual aid arrived, 17 minutes later. Did you know NFPA has a standard requiring that, 2 firefighter (minimum allowed) to enter a house fire, two has to be out side (would be rescuers) in the event they get in trouble. Which does not include the Incident commander or Pump operator. How many is on shift in your city? is it enough? Support your fire department....I am sueing mine...which is cheaper
Which city do you live in?
Why are you suing your city fire department kohnerm - were they negligent in the performance of their duties? If they weren't, then maybe your suit should be aimed at the city or other entity that failed to provide the department with adequate funding to properly staff their fire department. A simple structure fire requires more than three firemen to safely and effectively extinguish it. I don't know your whole story, obviously, but minimum staffing requirements for fire departments are about the public's safety in addition to safe and effective firefighting. I don't think a fire department exists that wouldn't want to provide proper staffing if funding allowed it.
And by the way, I believe that OSHA also dictates that if you don't have your two-in, two-out minimum, firefighters can only enter a burning structure to SAVE LIVES, not to extinguish a fire.
Some accurate numbers: FFD Fire Chiefs direct wages: $93,800/year.
The TRUE costs of the SAFER Grant: Total cost of the 3 firefighters over the SIX (6) years of the grant: $1,401,765.
Total amount the grant covers: $325,140.
Total amount covered by the City of Fairbanks: $1,076,625.
Average cost/year to the City for the 3 firefighters: $179,438
Average cost/year per firefighter: $59,813
The above costs include ALL wages and benefits associated with the hiring of the 3 firefighters for the SIX (6) year life of the grant.
------------------------------------------
Now, the above being said, showing averages in this way does not reflect the actual way the SAFER grant works.
First, yearly costs for the 3 positions are up front costs payable by the City. The City is then reimbursed a portion of their costs every year.
Next, the SAFER grant reimbursements are front end heavy. By that I mean that over the life of the grant, a higher percentage of the costs of the 3 positions are covered earlier in the grant period. Said differently, that simply means there is a decrease in the amount the City is reimbursed each year over the 6 year life of the grant, with the City bearing all costs in the final (6th) year. The intention behind this is to allow the City to budget and prepare for the additional costs over the life of the grant.
I'd rather pay more on my city property taxes for increased fire protection and a lower ISO rating, than more for my fire insurance. The former saves lives and property, and is income tax deductible. The latter is just an increased expense. I'm sometimes amazed at the cheapskates here in Fairbanks. And yes, I live in the city and pay city property tax. And No, I'm not a fireman.
--
Dear Abby:
Let's see! Uncle Sugar gives me 300 dollars to buy 3 horses that will cost me a $1,000 + at least 4% compounded annually per year to feed.
Should I buy the 3 horses?
Considering my investment earnings are down nearly 1/3 and income from other sources is also down about 20%. I also have bank loans to pay off, heating and electric bills inflated by the price of oil, and wages for numerous servants to clean and maintain my house, some of which are physically handicapped and can only lift 40#.
1AkFox for Bernie Madoff
Just glancing through the comments, I am having a feeling of deja vu. I believe we all had these arguments months and months ago, and possibly every few weeks after that.
I lived in Fairbanks for 6 years while I was attending the University and I spent 5 of those years serving my community as a volunteer firefighter/emt.
I know there are some of you who now hate me or are going to discount everything that follows because of that simple fact...but take a moment to read on.
The fire department earned a grant from the Department of Homeland Security...a NATIONAL agency. Which means, there were probably thousands of other departments who applied for the same grant. Which also means that SOMEbody SOMEwhere really believed that this department was in need of the money.
I understand hard economic times have made us all take a closer look at our money and where it's going. I recently moved to Virginia with the intention of becoming a full time paid firefighter. But, to no avail. When I arrived, I quickly learned that there was not one fire department in Northern or Central Virginia that was hiring. Many are even thinking about cutting back.
Those of you who disagree with what is happening in Fairbanks with the fire department are more than welcome to make the same drive I did and live in an area where they believe the fire department is an acceptable place to make budgetary cuts. In the last month, I have heard about at least 3 fire deaths and more near-misses.
For those who wish to take my advice, move here and enjoy paying extra on everything becaue of things like sales taxes and fees on toll roads. All of that on top of the fact that companies are laying off hundreds and thousands daily, and the wages being paid to everyone are drastically lower than in Alaska, and it's next to impossible to get a job, even if you have a high school diploma, or a college degree, or even two.
If that doesn't suit you, that leaves two options. Number one, move out in the wilderness (there's plenty of it in Alaska) where nobody can tax you for anything like public services, or food or cigarettes. Or, number two, quit complaining about this issue by putting down the firefighters and come up with some realistic solutions. I understand it's a time when we all need to tighten our belts, and that may include the firefighters, but if your intent here is just to put down the people who dedicate their lives to saving yours, what kind of person are you? We should be coming together to develop solutions, not playing armchair quarterback for the city government.
Don't like it when people call you on you lies, do ya 1AkFox?
Don't like it when the facts point out your manipulations, do ya 1AkFox?
How about this other lie you've loved spreading lately, that being that the average wage in Fairbanks is $25,000 per year. The average individual wage in Fairbanks is actually $46,500 per year.
I'll post again the facts I've previously posted regarding the lies you love to post:
According to U.S. Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/st......) the median income for Alaska is $60,506.
According to HUD (https://www.efanniemae.com/sf/refmateria......) the median income for Fairbanks is $71,300.
According to the Federal Gov. (http://www.fedstats.gov/qf/states/02/020......) the average earning per job in the FNSB is $46,594 (in 2005) while the percentage of the population with a Bechelor's degree or higher is only 27%.
You keep ranting about the average local wage being $25,000 per year (which is a lie), or ranting in other posts that you only earn $25,000 per year. If you're earning $25k or less per year, then that's your choice or the result of choices you've made. You are the only person responsible for your happiness, for educating yourself, or for providing yourself with a decent income. There are plenty of jobs in the local area that pay significantly better wages than $25k, some of which require a college education, and some of which don't. If you choose to stick with your job, that's your choice. But don't expect that skilled, educated individuals should earn what you earn, or struggle to get by, just because you've made the choices you've made. Go drive a dump truck at Fort Knox. They'll train you and you'll more than double your income, have health benefits and a retirement plan.
Your habit of blogging lies and manipulations add no intrinsic value to this website or to this community, and only serve to waste everyones time and effort when needing to correct them.
kohnerm, you should get a better lawyer if your suing. NFPA is not legislative, it's a guideline. But OSHA is law and 29 CFR 1910.134 is where the two-in-two out comes from, and your also wrong on the IC and driver operator.
Uh, you better read this, straight from OSHA
Does OSHA permit the two individuals outside the hazard area to be engaged in other
activities, such as incident command or fire apparatus operation (for example, pump or
aerial operators)?
OSHA requires that one of the two outside person's function is to account for and, if necessary,
initiate a fire fighter rescue. Aside from this individual dedicated to tracking interior personnel,
the other designated person(s) is permitted to take on other roles, such as incident commander
in charge of the emergency incident, safety officer or equipment operator. However, the
other designated outside person(s) cannot be assigned tasks that are critical to the safety and
health of any other employee working at the incident.
Any task that the outside fire fighter(s) performs while in standby rescue status must not
interfere with the responsibility to account for those individuals in the hazard area. Any task,
evolution, duty, or function being performed by the standby individual(s) must be such that
the work can be abandoned, without placing any employee at additional risk, if rescue or
other assistance is needed. [29 CFR 1910.134(g)(4)(Note 1)]
Sean White,
Just out of curiosity...wasn't your cabin/house/whatever one of the ones saved by a bunch of volunteers when the Roland Road fire happened about 10 years ago?
Those damned volunteers. Not worth their salt, and forever saving structures and spending their free time helping others.
M1000 you should look up NFPA 1710 and 1720. OSHA and NFPA don't say the same thing on the subject.
ADF & SeanWhite &Caligula24,
All of you fireman sound like beauracrats, stating rules and regulations. Have any of you done anything thing else beside go to the University fire science program and worked for the Government. You spew info from federal agencies. Ones like we haven,t been in a recession until a month ago. If it comes from the federal government it's either wrong, BS or a lie or should I say an untruth. Such as your fire chief making $93,000 a year. Did you mention comp time? Did you mention the Jeep he drives? Did you mention his PERS retirement he is drawing? Did you mention contibutions to his new retirement IBEW? An untruth is still a lie.
If you add it all up I would say $225,000 is more like his annual wage
Caligula24 - I really don't care about numbers but a conservative estimate would be that I have more non BLS calls that probably any 3 or more of you paramedics. And I would love to have you in the back of an ambulance with me. It would be tempting to put the tube in the wrong hole for you. But, placing it in the right hole would guarantee to shut you up. We did folies also.
Caligula24,
I wanted to let this go but I just couldn,t. You speak as if you are professional. Your statement just a drunk hobo??? Some people just don,t get the breaks or end up with health conditions out of their control. They unfortunately end up on the street. Some maybe are bums and maybe deserve what they get but many are not. I have seen and knew many pennyless people who were too proud to take a handout from the government even tho they had nothing. How about you?
FMH doing code 1 calls??? I would be doing all of them from the hospital and you could come with your shiny fire engine and assist me when I called for you. Just think of all the CME paramedics could get working in the ER doing IV's, tubes ect. Some or most of your paramedics would be to lazy for this. I know how fire departments work. I worked side by side with them and most, but not all, are just plain lazy.
hillbilly, you just need to shut up.
Of course they have to know the NFPA and OSHA standards. So do volunteers.
Jumpin' Jehosaphat, you think they just get out there and put the wet stuff on the red stuff? No education, no standards, no safety?
And you know what, don't even go with that whole "FMH doing code 1 calls" nonsense. EVERY code 1 has the potential to turn into a Code 5 FAST.
Erm, and saying you "worked side by side with them (fire depts), and most, but not all, are just plain lazy," is insane. Every single firefighter and medic I know is dedicated to their work (paid or volunteer), ready to jump out of bed at 3am just to pick up someone who slipped on the ice and can't get up. They love what they do, even when they're getting crapped on by drug addicts, vomited on by drunks, or threatened with bodily harm by diabetics who don't know any better.
You, and those like you who hate anyone who gives a crap, need to get the hell out of the house and volunteer.
Then maybe you can come back and write a letter with a little sense in it.
I finally registered to say my 2 cents worth. Having volunteered and been a paid firefighter I can understand both sides of this. While I disagree with the way the additional 3 FIREFIGHTERs will be funded I understand the need. I looked at the FFD annual reprot for 2007 and dug a little further into. The report states the they use FF's as paramedica and emt's ( if I a wrong please correct me). I also looked at the call statistics and volume by type. 2003-2007 they averaged 811.6 STRUCTURE fires a year with a breakdown of 2.2 a day. I would say that is a steady if not busy with there current staffing levels. Now I did the same with EMS, same time frame. 2963.6 EMS calls a year
with a 8.11 average a day. Seems to me they could hire indivduals specifically for working EMS and use the already working FF's on the medic units to bolster the ranks. Just a thought.
mamabear,
Perhaps you misunderstood when I stated I would perform all of them. I meant all of the ambulance calls not just code 1. This would include your code 3 & 5. And please don't tell be a private ambulance could not work in this town. Gee the city paramedic could work for the hospital on their off days and rest on the days they work at FFD. Best of both worlds don't you think???
I applaude the volunteers for their dedication. Paid people including myself when I was a paramedic, are just doing their job. Please don't tell me how hard it is I've been there and done that for a long time. (Private ambulance of course)
fydoc,
I applaud your research, however, governments especially fire departments, have the ability to justify their existance with numbers and figures. I would bet that If I was smoking fish in my smoker next to my house and a good citizen called 911 because they saw smoke, it would be lumped under strucure fire. There is no way FFD fights 811 structure fire a year.
Really good idea with just hiring EMS personnel. Fire departments have ruined many good EMS people because "you have to be a fireman 1st" So much baloney. Just these Fire Chiefs justifying their existance.
why do you think so many people choose to live outside of the city of fairbanks. if you live in the city you get fairbanks police protection outside state troopers. city firefighters versus volenteers who are your neighbors. roads usually a roadcommision or the lovely potholes of the city of fairbanks i live at the end of a road and take care of my own, i maintain my own well and septic tank but no city taxes no strange cars coming by all hours day or night. no drunk people staggering by and no tour buses disturbing my peace and quiet in the summer time. i lived in the city for about 3 years until i saw how the city was run and the mentality of the city council so choose to move outside.plus with the post office and the internet i can buy cheaper and better except groceries so why go to the city for most things.
I read, with some dismay, the sentiments of the citizens of Fairbanks. I am a career (paid) firefighter/paramedic with 20 years of service in a major municipality. I am not required to live in the city where I work. I receive a portion of the "cost per firefighter" as my salary. The rest of that money is calculated into the training, protective gear and benefits I receive; retirement, health and dental care (of which I pay premiums for) and worker's compensation. I have been to Fairbanks and enjoyed my stay. Part of Fairbanks' municipal rating, the ability to get grants, the levels of insurance coverage that both the city and it's residents pay are based on the protections it enjoys; fire police and emergency medical services. The reason that Fairbanks is not "the same small town it used to be" is because you continue to grow. That is fiscally encouraging. My city projects a 1.8 million dollar cut in fire services this year, the elimination of two engines and one ladder (11 people per shift for a total of 33 people) and a hiring freeze for this fiscal year. Be glad you are not in the same boat as my, and many other, "big-city" departments.
I heard about this debacle through a fire service newsletter I am associated with and I just cannot believe what I am reading here. I thought that my fire department (and subsequently the citizens we protect) had been taking it in the hind end in the past but now that I read here and have researched the Fairbanks FD a little bit, I truly feel sorry for them. For all of you who state that you don't want any more FD/EMS staffing or service, but then turn around and complain that the ambulance took too long or that a Hotel burnt down are sorely misguided. The ONLY way to improve response times and limit fire loss is through more staffing, better equipment, and strategically placed stations. You cannot expect 9 guys to do a job that needs 20. Here's the deal- on a bread and butter house fire to do the job right and safely (for both the FD personnel AND citizens/residents) you need twelve firefighters at the barest minimum. That's 2 for a primary attack team (the ones making first attempt at the seat of the fire), 2 for a search team (the ones searching for victims- i.e. YOU), 2 for a RIT team (the safety team in case something goes wrong with the FF's inside), 2 for a ventilation/secondary attack team (team to strategically open up the house to remove the smoke and heat to help the attack team attack the fire, limit risk of flashover or backdraft, and give any victims a better chance of survival as well as back-up the primary attack team), and you also need a Battalion Chief for overall command, a pump operator, and a 2 man ambulance crew for any injured victims. Even with that it is pushing the minimum manpower limits... FOR A SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENCE. These 12 personnel cannot handle a large apartment complex or commercial building fire adequately... you would need even more than that. AND you need personnel to cover the city while this is going on... run the simultaneous EMS and/or Fire calls that will be dropping while this fire is running. ---Continued below---
I heard about this debacle through a fire service newsletter I am associated with and I just cannot believe what I am reading here. I thought that my fire department (and subsequently the citizens we protect) had been taking it in the hind end in the past but now that I read here and have researched the Fairbanks FD a little bit, I truly feel sorry for them. For all of you who state that you don't want any more FD/EMS staffing or service, but then turn around and complain that the ambulance took too long or that a Hotel burnt down are sorely misguided. The ONLY way to improve response times and limit fire loss is through more staffing, better equipment, and strategically placed stations. You cannot expect 9 guys to do a job that needs 20. Here's the deal- on a bread and butter house fire to do the job right and safely (for both the FD personnel AND citizens/residents) you need twelve firefighters at the barest minimum. That's 2 for a primary attack team (the ones making first attempt at the seat of the fire), 2 for a search team (the ones searching for victims- i.e. YOU), 2 for a RIT team (the safety team in case something goes wrong with the FF's inside), 2 for a ventilation/secondary attack team (team to strategically open up the house to remove the smoke and heat to help the attack team attack the fire, limit risk of flashover or backdraft, and give any victims a better chance of survival as well as back-up the primary attack team), and you also need a Battalion Chief for overall command, a pump operator, and a 2 man ambulance crew for any injured victims. Even with that it is pushing the minimum manpower limits... FOR A SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENCE. These 12 personnel cannot handle a large apartment complex or commercial building fire adequately... you would need even more than that. AND you need personnel to cover the city while this is going on... run the simultaneous EMS and/or Fire calls that will be dropping while this fire is running.
Look at the annual fire report on the city of fairbanks website... they are consistently having more simultaneous calls than they can handle. Your current daily staffing is far undermanned for even one house fire much less adding the EMS and other fire/rescue calls. You guys need to wake up and bite the bullet a little bit here. I realize that the economy is tough... believe me we firefighters are not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination and we are feeling the pinch just as you are but in our job not having enough people or equipment results in people dying whether they be firefighters or citizens. So for the people who are about to tear me to pieces, yes I am a paid, professional firefighter as well as a volunteer and a paramedic. I do not discount the volunteer system but like many have said you cannot count on volunteers. There is a time delay EVERY time and you have no idea how many (if any) you will get to respond and then you have no guarantee that any of them will have any experience. School and training only go so far... you dont truly learn this job until you do it year in and year out.
All I can say after reading the majority of your comments is that I am so thankful I live here in my small Texas town and not in the People's Republic of Fairbanks.
I'am a Florida Firefighter who has been at the both ends of the fire pole. First let me just say that while being a volunteer FF I saw it nessesary for paid FF's because I wasn't going to leave my wife and kids at the store alone for 2 hrs while fighting a car,structure or even a dumpster fire. That just made it harder to serve the taxpayer's and also the visitor's and "Tourist" that visited our area and gave us work. I "worked". Because volunteering is "work"!... with kids that just left highschool up to retired folks that wanted to do something and had the time to do it. All the standards of NFPA and OSHA were never in the years of that FD ever followed...that was scary!Talk about risking your life for free...Well now as a paid FF I have a paycheck ($35,000yr)and still operate with one other FF on an Engine, and can bearley even run a fire scene with. I have had to run calls were people have looked at me cring asking me why can't I save their dog from the burning home. I've had to embarisly say I have to wait for more FF'S to arrive!I would hate to respond to those tax payers questions and say because they didn't want to pay the $6 dollars and .29 cents a year for the new FF's thats why I couldn't do my job "Safely". In stead I sugar coat it and say "waiting for additional help" which could be 10 maybe 15 min. away... Every tax payer in this town will eventualy need some type of help. Wether its EMS or FIRE. It seems though that EMS is always favored until a MAYOR'S or COMMISONER'S family is killed in a fire and then thats when FD becomes a priority. I say Instead of buying one pack of smokes a day or that beer that makes you happy!,you should pay the feaking 6 bucks! Also Mr.Hilbilly you worked for a private EMS...well lets see you prob. hate lazy firemen because you most likely tried to be one but Couldn't! Your comments to this sitiuation is a typical reaction coming from an old retired Ambulance medic that would never in his life even think about risking his life for others! Instead you took the needle fairy job and sat on your fat butt and talked smack with the patients all day and cried about paying taxes while your private ambulance money wasn't facing money problems. You never had to worry about your income..so shut up!! Go and bother your prono blog or something. Leave the new future FF'S and paramedic's to fight for their job's!For all the other people that rather pay for a candy bar instaead of paying the $6.29 a year wait until your house,car,boat whatever burns up you'll be paying 300 times that when your insurance company comes in and tells you that your deductable is $500 $1000 or even $2000.00 or no replacement at all. Dont come knocking at the FD for housing. Hope you have your nest egg ready...
.....And do we just fire that other FF once the grant runs out? Good way to thank him/ her for 5 years of service to the city!
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