Letter to the Editor
Airline drinking
Published Friday, May 9, 2008
May 3, 2008
To the editor:
Lately there have been several good editorials and letters about the dangers of drinking and driving. We have also read many articles about the tragedies caused by drinking and driving. I would like to address one issue that could, and most likely has contributed to accidents, injuries and deaths due to driving under the influence.
As a frequent flyer, I’m often upgraded to first class on Alaska Air. Last year a friend told me that he knew why people loved first class — they get all the booze they want for free. I laughed at the time but lately, not only do I not find his comment funny, I find the practice of serving alcohol to first-class passengers in the liberal and apparently unregulated manner that Alaska Airlines does quite dangerous.
I recently returned from Anchorage and was seated next to someone who smelled heavily of alcohol. In a 40-minute flight this passenger was served three drinks straight-up — hard liquor. As I disembarked, I commented to the flight attendant who served him that if the airline was under the same legal restriction as a bar, they would be liable should he harm or kill someone if he drove home. The flight attendant angrily responded that the airlines have a different legal responsibility than bars.
This should be looked at. This is not the first time I have sat next to or observed passengers arriving on the plane under the influence and drinking a lot of alcohol in a short time. It amazes me to see how quickly flight attendants start serving alcohol on the early morning flights and how much passengers consume. As a professional who deals with addictions, I am sure most of these passengers would be way over the legal limit should a trooper stop them as they drove away from the Fairbanks Airport.
I encourage the troopers to monitor the airport more closely. More importantly, I think Alaska Air should be more responsible in serving alcohol. I do not think we should wait for innocent lives to be taken until the law is changed.
Community Discussion
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how about personal responsibility there bonnie. quit trying to pass the proverbial "buck" on bars and airlines. if someone drinks and drives then that is THEIR responsibility, not the bars, and certainly not the flight attendants'.
some people feel that a drink helps with the flight experience. you know, dealing with people like you, that badger them about booze in the morning.
how many people actually drive away from the airport when they land? and if they do, then that was their decision.
i personally do not do well with commercial flying alone. and will ALWAYS have a cold one or two before going to my flights.
when i was getting back from iraq, i didnt care what time of the day it was. and i will always remember that flight attendant for the kindness she and the pilot showed to me and my battle buddy!! AT 9 AM!!
Ok first let's not forget the Airport have their own police who regularly deal with intoxicated passengers. I would know because thats me doing it. But thats ok.
Second, the law does not need to change. The same laws that apply to bars, applies to the airlines. I would like to converse with this Attendant and set them straight because they are absolutely wrong. An AK Air jet IS a licensed premise and if someone is intoxicated on a licensed premise then they violate AS 4.16.040 and can go to jail for a misdemeanor. We do charge violators with this. The problem comes with how. For us we usually only find out by tip of another before they get on the plane which results in a denied boarding. If we determine they are intoxicated they don't fly. Or if the pilot just doesn't like whats happening they can say no even if he is not legally intoxicated. That's his prerogative. This Attendant/Beverage server needs to remember what she learned in her mandated server course. AS 4.16.030 states that it is her/his responsibility not to serve alcohol to a drunken person. This also is a misdemeanor and could result in jail time for the server. If misconduct is happening during flight we won't know unless someone concerned speaks up. If someone is concerned the right thing to do is addressed below.
Bonnie feel content that we Airport Police do what we can with what we are given and share some common feelings as we have seen the consequences of some drunken behavior. We have successfully charged violators as there is a provision for this situation. In the air, an airplane is FBI territory. However as soon as the doors open it is state territory. This doesn't mean what happened in the air won't be addressed though. There is such a thing as private person arrest. If you or others concerned witness behavior you believe is in violation of the law you can order us to arrest. If we have probable cause after investigation we are required to follow through. Being a misdemeanor though YOU have to speak up. You must have witnessed the crime for it to be charged. Get a description, name etc., then when you deplane ask for an Airport Police officer. There is usually at least one in the terminal. Personally this Attendants view is new to me as the flight crew members I have met are very leery of these things with good reason. Noone wants things to go bad at 35,000 feet. Remember you can utilize your statutory right. If you see something illegal. First find out for sure if it is. If it is direct it to the proper channels. I'm not recommending throwing handcuffs on people but using your resources.
As for Burninator we all are entitled to our opinions. I'm not saying I don't agree with you, BUT the law stands and we must abide by it. We have the ability to write our legislators if we like. The problem with the drinkers responsibility, is, that when you do drink to a point you lose that sense of responsibility. We are talking about drunkeness here. Not drinkers.
Bonnie sounds like that you fly to anchorage and back a lot. Yes the flight is short and yes you can buy a beer/whine/hard liquior if you want thats your choice. I fly a lot, probably more then you. Flight attendants are very responsible to who they serve booze to. There main reason of being there is to ensure safety of the flight and comfort to everyone aboard. They use good judgement thats part of there job. Flying back from Anchorage you only have about 20 minutes before decent so yeah you may have to pound your beer or two down, doesn't mean you have an addiction. Most people get picked up or take a cab when they get to there destination. I have seen many times the airlines won't allow someone on there aircarft if there too drunk. People need to take more responsibility for themselves, if they drink and drive that makes them responsible not the bar or airline or wherever they got the drink from.
Bonnie:
Alcohol is odorless so you could not have smelled it. Being a professional you should know this.
What if the person next to you just stinks ... should the airlines be responsible for that?
How do you know the person was driving after they arrived?
Do you think the troopers have nothing else to do except sit outside the airport?
How do you know that “most of these passengers would be way over the legal limit? 3-4 drinks won’t do it.
You seem to have a personal issue with alcohol and you are painting with a broad brush. Perhaps you should find other means of transportation and then your personal issues are gone.
Well ok, beer, liquor etc...the alcohol in these are odorless. But who can't smell the difference between the bunch due to the other ingredients.
Much to your dismay metabolised alcohol is very odorful. But only because of the changes your body makes to it before it expels it in your breath. What do you think clues in cops when they pull people over and they roll down their window. The smell is actually the change of alcohol being released from the blood to CO2 in your lungs which coincidentally is how it is measured. Most think it is just the leftover alcohol in the mouth and esophagus. Alcohol is odorless but the smell she is referring to is a direct result of alcohol in your body, is very true and is only caused by consuming it.
Don't kid yourself James. You knew what she meant.
N2AK- not trying to bait you, but if you work for the airport police and you do bring in drunks, then i am sure i have worked with you in one way or another. first of all, it takes about 4 hours for the blood to actually begin metabolizing, so when you start smelling it and they're still drinking, you know they have had a few...
but what i meant was, i do not go to the airport trashed. but one or two to cool you down you know. but as for the responsibility issue, i dont care who you (not YOU, you; but you know) are, but whether you are trashed or not, you decided to take that first drink, so drunk or not, it is YOUR OWN responsibility.
people that blow a .300 and above and run some kid over, are they not responsible for their actions because they were TOO drunk?
n2ak- make sure that you spell out the differance between being drunk in a public place and the .08 law, because they are different and as a Peace officer you should know that.... Misleading information will not make a law. Too drunk for public and too drunk to drive, completely different for a reason.
James,
Alcohol in its purest form may not smell, however with the ingredients that are added to produce our modern day drinkable alcohol it does smell. As a former bartender I can usually tell you what type of alcohol, and even in some cases the brand name, is in a glass just by the smell of it. Also,
3-4 drinks in a short period of time can put you over the legal limit of .08. It also doesn't matter if they were driving or not if they were over the legal limit. In the state of Alaska it is illegal to be in a public place if you are intoxicated, over .08.
I know many people who can tell the difference between the odor of someone who is seeping alcohol through their pores and someone who happens to have an unpleasant body odor, they are very distinct and different smells.
TheBurninator: "how about personal responsibility there bonnie. quit trying to pass the proverbial "buck" on bars and airlines. if someone drinks and drives then that is THEIR responsibility, not the bars, and certainly not the flight attendants'."
Is everything about personal responsibility? That is, is there any room in your world of cause and effect for *social* responsibility, or does the lonely individual bear the full responsibility for every act he performs? Would you say we have no duty to be our brothers' keepers?
What if you could predict, with statistical regularity, that literacy at age nine was a predictor of adult incarceration rates nine years later (age 18)? Could you perhaps allow that the society that educates children and leaves many illiterate bears some responsibility for the crime rate? Or would you say that those young offenders made a choice in the fourth grade to spend their adult lives in and out of prison?
I am not trying to make an exact parallel between this case and that of those who drink to excess on airplanes. I just hope to show your apparent view on responsibility for the antisocial, isolating lie that it is -- and (more narrowly) to suggest that airline personnel may have a moral obligation, not merely a legal one, to monitor passengers' drinking.
I like the words of the rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel: "Some are guilty, but all are responsible."
Not being a user of alcohol, I have never understood why anyone would need to alter their consciousness in order to get through a day, or an event.
Life seems so much better when one is bright and alert.
Bonnie,
Thank you for writing about this important issue. I am sure it will spur...interesting...conversation. I agree with you that law enforcement should be available to monitor the airport more closely. I also believe that airlines should be held to the same standard as other establishments in serving alcohol. Giving all the booze first class passengers want for free is not responsible business, and I will certainly research this issue and write a letter to Alaska Airlines to express my dissatisfaction with this policy.
I don't fly much, but I do remember one full flight where I sat next to someone who was so drunk I swear he burped beer bubbles. It wasn't a pleasant experience.
arctic angel it is not illegal to be in a public place (and not driving) with a BAC over .08! Before you add to the disinformation campaign go read the law, as 'an ex bartender' as you say, you should know that! That is why that number is associated with a DUI or DWI; key letter is the D- it stands for driving!
Public intoxication is derived from ones demeanor and ability to control there motor skills (not motor vehicle skills FYI), please get more information before you mislead people with inaccurate facts!
I get a little nervous flying around at 30,000 feet on an airline that is known for frequent mechanical malfunctions. After I've had a few drinks I'm much more relaxed and can usually even fall asleep on a long flight. I know that I hardly ever drive away from an airport. There is usually a hotel shuttle or someone to pick me up at my destination. I believe that many people share my same sentiments when it comes to flying.
Lots of folks have gone on about personal responsibility and we should not go after the bars and such. I am a BIG believer in personal responsibility but, as often is the case, the argument can go too far.
When an accident occurs, oftentimes the damages go way beyond what the guilty person can pay. Who then should make up the difference? The injured party? You or me through increased taxes? Some random person? Or an establishment that profited by actions that led to the accident? It may not be "fair" that a bar owner has to pay out because their employee provided alcohol to an intoxicated person who later shattered a families dreams but it certainly isn't fair that the injured family pays and frankly, I don't feel like shouldering the burden either. Somebody HAS to pay and that is an absolute fact. Having the bar pay may not be fair but often times it is the least unfair.
Please don't believe that I am bashing the alcohol industry. I like my drink at the end of the day as much as many of you. I am just trying to be a realist.
Cheers!
"clink"
What about all those people who need a Xanax or Valium to get through a flight? Surely, they would not be in the best shape to drive upon arrival. Perhaps we should limit anti-anxiety drugs for those who are afraid to fly--- that should make it fun for the rest of us.
Bonnie, if you were truly concerned about the passenger who had "three drinks straight-up" within 40 minutes, I'm hoping you fulfilled your civic responsibility and followed him to make sure he wasn't driving home and made a quick call to airport police if he was.
Alcohol is not odorless. My dad was an alcoholic and drunk Jack Daniels. You could smell him coming. And not only could the airline be fined for serving intoxicated passengers so can the flight attendant.
A lot of people seem to forget what they learned in their TAMS classes. Not only is it illegal, but an intoxicated person not only put people on the ground at danger if they drive, but other passengers on the plane if they become violent.
Sorry folks but I was awake and sober when I attended the TAMS class.
I can only imagine the comments if the airlines would serve free booze in the coach class as the european airlines. :) another booze letter to the editor, again....the hottest topic.
I had a similar experience on an Alaska flight. I started a thread on the topic on FlyerTalk, an online frequent flyer community. It was an interesting discussion and included comments from a couple of flight attendants. Note: ASflyer and AS Flyer are two different people. AS Flyer is a flight attendant.
http://flyertalk.com/forum/archive/index...
"how about personal responsibility there bonnie. quit trying to pass the proverbial "buck" on bars and airlines. if someone drinks and drives then that is THEIR responsibility, not the bars, and certainly not the flight attendants''
No, no, no, no. I've bartended and served before, each time requiring either TAMS or TIPS certification. You as the server can be brought up on charges if the inebriate is involved in an accident, or activity that involves either personal or public property damage. In a larger sense, your employer will also be held liable. The same holds true for a flight attendant and the attendant's airline employer.
If someone believes their "rights" are being infringed upon by stating drinking is "their responsibilty", then I have news for you. You may have the right to drink, but the server of said beverage also has the right to not serve you. If they have been properly trained, they should know how to responsibly deal with any situation regarding the responsible drinker and others than may have taken excess libation.
Non_Lemming.
I like a few drinks on a flight. I'm 6’1”and 195 lbs I don’t fit in the seats very well my shoulders are to wide. Rubbing elbows with the woman who just bathed in perfume or the walking ash tray, or the BO stink from the 400 pounder that extruding into my seat area. I hope the bar is open. There will always be some jerk who abuses the privilege to drink so punish him not all of us. You may never know what kind of day that guy had or if he just cant handle flying. I say take up a new cause like banning Subaru’s from the express way.
Yes, it's all about "personal responsibility." However, the laws are there to protect the rest of us from those who fail, for whatever reason, to exercise good personal responsibility.
As an MVP Gold member of Alaska Airlines for several years now, I have found them to be very diligent in making sure they do not “over serve” people. I fly both in state and all over the country and I almost always upgrade to first class and so I have seen how people drink those free drinks and how most of the flight attendants respond to them. I have seen them on many occasions refuse to serve someone and have also seen people escorted off flights.
As many have stated…..some people need the alcohol to get through the flight. Some people may not understand but that does not change the facts that some people need an outside “courage” to get through a flight. As someone that has sat next to a person about ready to come unglued because of being scared in flight……bring on the booze! I would have much perfered that they slammed 4 drinks!!! As others have also stated…..most people do not drive when they get to their destination. As long as they are not driving when they get off the plane and they do not make trouble while on the plane I don’t think it is anyone’s business.
One other point…….if a person has a hard night of “partying” and then gets on a plane the next morning you are going to still smell the effects of the alcohol. It does not matter if they are a really clean person or not…..as it works its way out of the sweat glands you will smell it. So just because someone smells heavily of alcohol does not mean they are drunk at that time.
And finally Bonnie…..if you were that concerned but did not follow them to make sure that they did not drive then you have no right to get on your soap box. If you did follow them and make sure they were not driving then great!!! But if they were not making trouble and they were not driving then it was no ones business but theirs!!!
IUR- Driving under the influence of those drugs can get you arrested.
For those that mention personal responsibility let me ask you this.
When does your right to be an idiot (drinking and driving) infringe on my right to be safe (from your personal irresponsibility {not you, you, but you know} of drinking and driving)?
That must be why you're "obiwan"!!
akwild said: "People need to take more responsibility for themselves, if they drink and drive that makes them responsible not the bar or airline or wherever they got the drink from."
I couldn't agree more - it SHOULD be about personal responsibility. However, legally the bar can be held responsible (I would assume the airline can too) as can the server/bartender who served them (by extension I would assume the flight attendant). In theory this should be a deterrent for anyone in the liquor industry to over serve.
Almost any bartender can tell you that the really "fun" part about this little liability is that consistently cutting people off after a 2 or 3 - the point where most folks would be legally over the limit whether or not they're "exhibiting signs of intoxication" - is a really great way to get fired. Not that I have any useful ideas on how to fix this obvious catch 22...just an observation.
Just to clarify what the law says, for those that THINK they know the law. Also, raw alcohol DOES have a smell, and I would be willing to prove it to anyone that asks.
AS 04.16.030. Prohibited Conduct Relating to Drunken Persons.
(a) A licensee, an agent, or employee may not with criminal negligence
(1) sell, give, or barter alcoholic beverages to a drunken person;
(2) allow another person to sell, give, or barter an alcoholic beverage to a drunken person within licensed premises;
(3) allow a drunken person to enter and remain within licensed premises or to consume an alcoholic beverage within licensed premises;
(4) permit a drunken person to sell or serve alcoholic beverages.
(b) A person receiving compensation for transporting alcoholic beverages may not knowingly deliver alcoholic beverages to a drunken person.
AS 04.16.040. Access of Drunken Persons to Licensed Premises.
A drunken person may not knowingly enter or remain on premises licensed under this title.
DEFINITION
(8) "drunken person" means a person whose physical or mental conduct is substantially impaired as a result of the introduction of an alcoholic beverage into the person's body and who exhibits those plain and easily observed or discovered outward manifestations of behavior commonly known to be produced by the overconsumption of alcoholic beverages;
Imusuallyright: "What about all those people who need a Xanax or Valium to get through a flight?"
This became a necessity for me when I started flying with kids. Liquor wasn't enough to soothe the pain. I usually bring a few extra pills to pass out to the surrounding passengers. Catch me on my next flight and I'll slide you a few.
Will do, Curmudgeon. Just make sure I'm not mixing them with liquor.
I have seen AkAir serve 3 + beers at one time on a 1 hour flight, Anch to Fbx, to someone who was the accompanying adult to a toddler. In event of a crash, the adult would not be able to assist (fell asleep as soon as the beers were drunk).
I have seen AkAir serve more alcohol to someone already intoxicated to the point of getting sick (also a 1-hr flight).
In neither case would these passengers be able to exit the plane in an emergency without endangering others.
lauridsen
Your example is VERY rare. I have been flying AKAir on avg of 2 - 3 times a month for the past 3 years, both in state and across the country. I have NEVER seen the example that you presented. I am not saying it did not happen....I believe you.....I am just saying that it is not the norm. Most flight attendants limit the drinks, at least in first class, to 2 between Fairbanks and Anchorage. I have seen them serve more than 2 on that flight but rarely. But....as far as the person falling asleep....maybe they needed that to get through the flight. Now I agree that doing that with a toddler in tow is not smart. But again.....must be extremely rare....I have never seen anyone served too much with young children in tow. Once again……not trying to say it did not happen…..I just want the point to be clearly made that serving drunks and getting people drunk is not the policy of Alaska Airlines as I have witnessed it for these past 3 years.
JB,
The .08 law? What is that? Are you referring to driving? Either way I was referring to neither. Look up the statute I quoted, or just read Chelly's posting. Remaining on a premises while drunken. I'm pretty sure the law I quoted is the one I was talking about.
Arcticangel,
There is no state law for Public intoxication. There are city codes though. Fairbanks has one.
Burninator,
I apologize if I made you sound irresponsible. I was truly referring to the stereotype of drunken person. Nothing personal intended.
What about all the folks on prescription meds? You would be surprised at how many people drive, fly on planes, fly planes, etc, who are on prescription pain meds. Some of them high as a kite. Lots and lots of 'em.